Chapter 11 announced - Part 3 - BSA's Toggle Plan

[ThenNow]

2 minutes ago, 100thEagleScout said:

If someone doesn’t even remember the name/place of occurrence/date of occurrence.  If they can remember two of those three I’d give them a vote.

I am not interested in denying any of my fellows a crack at whatever peanuts we're afforded, but I want to see at least some worn, crumbled and faded receipts, as well. I know many survivors from various age groups and abuse contexts. I don't know any who couldn't give you that information, in one form or another. Zero evidence or corroborating points of reference is not a good sign of viability, in MY opinion only. The TCC isn't begging claimants to file amendments with missing details for their good health and amusement. 

[ThenNow]

1 minute ago, johnsch322 said:

How about how much time has past from the abuse, trying to keep it out of your mind for 40 to 50 years and now you are 70 or 80 years old and memories are not what they used to be.  Good enough?

If we know where we lived, that is a point of reference. If we have any recollection of where we met, that is a reference point, even if not the full identification of the building or CO. If we know of anyone else involved in the program, that is a reference point. If we can describe the patch from our camp, that is a reference point. Are there any such threads to pull that will take us to more detail? These are the type of things I hope men with legitimate claims will try very hard to tease out and add to their POC.

 

[100thEagleScout]

8 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

How about how much time has past from the abuse, trying to keep it out of your mind for 40 to 50 years and now you are 70 or 80 years old and memories are not what they used to be.  Good enough?

I’d need a little more information than that.  I’m not trying to be devil’s advocate here, but for the sake of fairness you have to remember something unless you have a valid diagnosis of repressed memory.  Maybe the color of the perpetrator’s jacket, relative location, time of year, etc.

[fred8033]

Been following these cases for years and the bankruptcy from the start.  Usually things make sense.   In this case, I just don't understand how this case makes sense.  

Any settlement right now would need to be BSA only.  I don't see how any settlement now would end liability for insurance companies, local councils or charter orgs.  Even if insurance somehow was in a settlement, they just need to be sued via CO who thought they were insured by them too.  

This is a "BSA" bankruptcy.  There is no insurance or LC or CO bankruptcy involved.  There is no "class action" covering all unknown injured.  It's only covering the debts currently owed by BSA.  Even if there was a settlement, wouldn't that need to go to the bankruptcy to be shared / negotiated by the other parties.  

The only path I can see is a BSA agreement to lock the amount of funds BSA will put into a bankruptcy trust fund to pay debts.  Then BSA can proceed forward.   Such a settlement is beneficial to those owed money because it could quickly stop the BSA legal spend rate which could consume a huge portion of assets.  

Then again ... I just don't understand how this case works and I'm not a lawyer. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by fred8033

[johnsch322]

Just now, 100thEagleScout said:

I’d need a little more information than that.  I’m not trying to be devil’s advocate here, but for the sake of fairness you have to remember something unless you have a valid diagnosis of repressed memory.  Maybe the color of the perpetrator’s jacket, relative location, time of year, etc.

When the insurance company's first came up with their idea of rooting out false claims I thought it was a good idea.  I figured there will be more money in the pot for myself.  I talked to a lawyer whom I trust and he told me that that was a delaying tactic and that the actual cost of investigation, interrogation etc. etc. would cost far more than paying out on those claims.  Seeing how much has been paid so far in legal fees I tend to agree with him.  That being said if a smaller amount was offered up to all for dropping out with the possibility of more vetting of the claims I think a lot of the false claims would disappear.  

[CynicalScouter]

2 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Any settlement right now would need to be BSA only.  I don't see how any settlement now would end liability for insurance companies, local councils or charter orgs. 

Because the LCs, COs, and insurance companies are "protected parties". Yes, it is BSA's bankruptcy, but there are 900+ lawsuits naming BSA along with the LCs and COs (or combinations thereof).

It is possible for LCs to "join" in on the settlement, as "protected parties", but they have to pay in for the privilege.

Take, for example, a lawsuit John Smith vs. BSA and a LC. Right now, that case is stayed pending the bankruptcy; it cannot proceed either against BSA OR the LC thanks to the court's stay order(s).

Now, once BSA leaves bankruptcy, the stay is lifted. BSA is immediately dismissed from Smith vs. BSA and LC and the case proceeds as Smith vs. LC. That LC could then immediately make a settlement, could it not?

Putting the LCs into the mix NOW allows for one mass "global" settlement rather than thousands of Smiths suing thousands of LCs and getting to the same place: a settlement.

[ThenNow]

11 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

That being said if a smaller amount was offered up to all for dropping out with the possibility of more vetting of the claims I think a lot of the false claims would disappear.  

As I understand it, this is a typical structure and can be anticipated. A friend in the know refers to the tiers/phases as "off ramps" along the way. Here's $1000 with no scrutiny. Yes? Bye, bye. No, thanks? Howzabout $2500 after some low level scrutiny seems to validate your claim? And so on. 

[johnsch322]

7 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

As I understand it, this is a typical structure and can be anticipated. A friend in the know refers to the tiers/phases as "off ramps" along the way. Here's $1000 with no scrutiny. Yes? Bye, bye. No, thanks? Howzabout $2500 after some low level scrutiny seems to validate your claim? And so on. 

I concur.  

[ThenNow]

Random question, but relevant to this discussion. Is anyone aware of BSA's position on administrative abuse claims, meaning they arose post-filing? Technically, they should not be subject to the stay or channeling injunction.  

[100thEagleScout]

1 minute ago, ThenNow said:

Random question, but relevant to this discussion. Is anyone aware of BSA's position on administrative abuse claims, meaning they arose post-filing? Technically, they should not be subject to the stay or channeling injunction.  

They would submit claims to the FCR for evaluation.  After retaining private counsel.  Unless a global resolution isn’t reached in which case they’d have recourse in the normal tort system.

[Eagle1993]

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

Because the LCs, COs, and insurance companies are "protected parties". Yes, it is BSA's bankruptcy, but there are 900+ lawsuits naming BSA along with the LCs and COs (or combinations thereof).

I think the US Bankruptcy Trustee is raising the same questions.  I'm still not 100% convinced a global settlement would pass an appeals process.  All it takes is 1 claimant to say, I want to sue my local council for $20M.  They are not bankrupt and are legally responsible for my injury.  The could sue and then go through appeals.  If the appeals see the Bankruptcy Trustee objected, I wonder if that could get the settlement thrown out.  

I would have been more convinced if local councils never had to pay out directly from prior lawsuits.  So if local councils were found liable in the past, how can a bankruptcy of the National organization provide protection for legally distinct local councils?

I'll be more convinced when I see the US Bankruptcy Trustee agree with the deal.  Until then, I agree with @fred8033that there is significant doubt if a global deal is even legal.

[ThenNow]

36 minutes ago, 100thEagleScout said:

They would submit claims to the FCR for evaluation.  After retaining private counsel.  Unless a global resolution isn’t reached in which case they’d have recourse in the normal tort system.

That was my thinking, but I heard a rumor that BSA is full court pressing for them to be included with the settlement and subject to the channeling injunction. Are you aware of any such abuse claim(s) submitted to the FCR for this specific evaluation?

[100thEagleScout]

1 minute ago, ThenNow said:

That was my thinking, but I heard a rumor that BSA is full court pressing for them to be included with the settlement and subject to the channeling injunction. Are you aware of any such abuse claim(s) submitted to the FCR for this specific evaluation?

No.  I saw in the TCC document I think 10 direct abuse claims in 2020.  2019 had I think 19 claims which were also potentially subject to the FCR as well.  Generally you do better in court or in the regular bankruptcy settlement over settlement through the FCR in bankruptcy.

[Eagle1993]

Kosnoff is out with his update.  Is he reading Scouter.com?  Basically, he believes insurance companies, non cooperative LCs and all COs will be abandoned by the BSA.  

 

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"Do  or Die Time for BSA? Probably yes."

I tend to agree.  They have appeared to abandon their current plan and have run out of time for any other option. 

 

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Only way BSA has a ghost of a chance of surviving now is for Chubb/Century/Hartford, the COs, the renegade councils to get thrown under the wheels of the bus and BSA accepts being a skeletal version of its former self.

To me ... this sounds like Kosnoff saying that National BSA abandons any hope of protecting COs or LCs (who are not paying large settlements) and also abandons prior deals with Hartford.  I think he is 100% correct here.  The COs seem to have not been agreeing to the court delays, so it sounds like they may be on the outs.  The TCC plan was a LC by LC resolution, which is likely what will come out.  BSA has already mentioned they will be a trimmed down version.

 

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... hundreds of thousands of cases against Charter Orgs e.g. LDS, Methodists, VFW Posts yada yada yada.  And I can't imagine how BSA will ever be able in the future to sign up a chartering organization.  And the fury ... OMG!

I have to imagine a bunch of COs are like ... "you can't yada yada yada the most important part .. are we on the list".  I think he probably meant hundreds to thousands of cases (not hundreds of thousands).  That said, he is 100% correct once again.  Our COs will be sued and BSA will not be there to protect them.  

I really feel for many of our COs.  Most just thought they were offering a place to meet.  They signed the paperwork out of a sense of civic or religious duty.  I have a bad feeling our larger COs are about to see a wave of lawsuits later this year.  At this point, I wonder if BSA abandons the CO model or at minimum, is 100% ready for a large number of units to take the Council charter model.  

 

 

 

 

[100thEagleScout]

5 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Kosnoff is out with his update.  Is he reading Scouter.com?

Probably.  He’s pretty much on the inside of BSA these days.  I’m sure he reads the Reddit too.

 

6 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

The TCC plan was a LC by LC resolution, which is likely what will come out.  BSA has already mentioned they will be a trimmed down version.

I call this the “Survival Plan”.  BSA runs off of the coke they’ve been funneling through for the last year.

 

8 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Our COs will be sued and BSA will not be there to protect them

I wonder if COs might have a defense of “We signed away our liability to BSA, so talk to them”.  If not, many COs are still in bankruptcies of their own.