ThenNow Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 44 minutes ago, yknot said: You were never really alone with an adult. (Thanks for setting me straight.) That one sentence boils it down to gravy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MYCVAStory Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 7 hours ago, ThenNow said: Anyone have any 'what's the skinny' mediation info on the down low? It's probably pretty safe to assume that to a certain extent "No news is good news." This is the largest bankruptcy related to sexual abuse in history. Factor in CO's, LC's, future claimants, and the largest piece of the equation the insurers and the complexity is great. Every victim had hopes for the parties with financial exposure to be lining up checkbook in hand. That quickly vanished. So now it's a lot of sweating the details and everyone should all be reminded that if it's a BSA-only or BSA and LC-only settlement then the litigation against insurers will continue for potentially a long time since time is on their side. Welcome to the bankruptcy process. As well, welcome to the speed of the judicial process. Even those victims in States that were statute-friendly would be seeing their cases crawling through covid-impacted courts. So for many this process that's crawling along will still result in faster resolution or any sort of resolution at all if the abuse occurred in a statute unfriendly State. The TCC has reluctantly reminded claimants that this is "business" and wishes it weren't so. Safe to assume that the lack of updates and hearings means there's some sort of progress. For victims waiting for any sort of resolution after decades of hopes on hold it's understandably hard to be patient. Here's to better days soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MYCVAStory Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 31 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said: Here's to better days soon. And for now, that means the BSA is the responsible party for having/filing a confirmable plan. If it wants out of bankruptcy on the schedule it already communicated then perhaps a plan will be filed in the next day or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 Perhaps a minor look at the talks. Century Request to Hold June 17 meeting It appears the insurance companies are out of the loop and BSA/Coalition/TCC are working on a plan (Century states a non-consensual plan will be sought). BSA also hired a law firm to handle their insurance companies. Kosnoff is tweeting as if a plan is coming soon. He is lowering the bar on expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, yknot said: ... In 4H, it's pretty much all public. You don't do anything with an adult leader, ... This is where I disagree. Really. I do disagree here. I hugely disagree that there was less opportunity. Mentors. Sleep overs. Camping. Lots of private locations (barns, shops, trips, etc). Previously also lacking YPT rules such as no one-on-one contact (getting in mentor's car). Parents trusting the great virtue of the volunteer leaders. ... This is where there is much in common with BSA. I'm not saying it's the same. I am saying it's naive to think it's fundamentally different. Abuse requires opporunity, time, privacy, etc. It is all there in 4-H just like BSA and many other programs. SLEEP OVERS ... https://www.deseret.com/2007/7/4/20028174/4-h-leader-in-tooele-is-charged-with-child-sex-abuse Monroe Music Makers in the Monroe County 4-H program ... https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/06/12/former-music-store-owner-convicted-in-child-porn-case-awaiting-trial-on-sex-assault/ 4-H Mentor and Coach ... https://www.abc15.com/news/crime/pd-former-glendale-4-h-coach-accused-of-sex-with-minor Acquittal, but very familiar comments. People testifying to volunteers good nature. People not believing accuser. Imagine this was 1980. This is how many trials would have gone. https://www.augustachronicle.com/article/20131006/NEWS/310069882 Search engines do yield far, far fewer results. Search engines have trouble with 4-H as a search parameter. Not key issue, but it is there. Much easier to search on BSA, YMCA, youth pastor, etc. I suspect it has to do with the 4-H as a tag and how it's search indexed. Change term from 4-H to YMCA or school or teacher or youth pastor and you get a current incident rate that is at least as high as BSA. I do believe 4-H as a search parameter is hard to queue up correctly. Looser boundaries may not be reported as 4-H. Family friend hosting a sleep over. Unless there is a cow or an animal, youth programs that don't immediately trigger "4-H" connection, example Music Makers. Scouting is "uniformed" and much more clear boundaries about inside scouting or outside. Reflecting back decades and you think about an adult friend / community member who taught you about animals or music and not necessarily a uniformed troop member. Do you immediately think 4-H? Or just a guy who did something wrong? Certain gender mixes and age mixes trigger less outrage. Seriously. Example is male youth with high school female teacher. In the 1970s / 1980s, this would not have been brought to police. If anything, friends would give a pat on the back and non-family adults would be not necessarily consider it abuse. ... NOW ... you see many female teachers regularily in the news arrested for sex abuse. ... I'd argue that was true with female-to-female also. ... And the nature of the incident is different, but yes, men tend to be the main predator. I think it opens many more possible cases once you recognize it was an abuse situation and not just a he's too old(20s) and she's too young. Or F/F or adult woman / male youth. I'm not debating a statistical difference. I'm asserting it's naive to 4-H has less occurences even though it has mentors, a loose program structure and a similar history to BSA. ... What I am betting is there is a definite difference in that 4-H doesn't have a 70+ years of records of volunteer incidents . I'm betting because it's recorded and administrated very differently. Edited June 17, 2021 by fred8033 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattR Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Put another way, it's foolish to assume there's no sexual abuse in 4-H. 10 hours ago, fred8033 said: What I am betting is there is a definite difference in that 4-H doesn't have a 70+ years of records of volunteer incidents . It's hard for me to believe that the records the BSA kept had much impact on the situation they're in. There are over 80k cases. If most of those cases were in the records and that's how everyone found out about the cases then sure, the records led to where we are today. But there were only a few thousand cases in those records? Everyone has been surprised by the extent of this problem. Why 4-H doesn't have nearly the number of cases is another question. I can imagine all sorts of reasons why but that's just me pondering. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) https://www.wsj.com/articles/boy-scouts-near-bankruptcy-deal-with-largest-victim-group-11623949286 Quote The tentative deal follows months of closed-door negotiations that also involve an official committee of victims and hundreds of affiliated local councils spread across the country. The Boy Scouts have agreed to pay roughly $250 million in cash and other assets under the chapter 11 proposal, which also includes at least $500 million contributed by the local councils, people familiar with the matter said. Edited June 17, 2021 by CynicalScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: https://www.wsj.com/articles/boy-scouts-near-bankruptcy-deal-with-largest-victim-group-11623949286 BSA previously provided $115M, so not its $250M. So where is the additional $135M coming from? The only thing I could think is that National has agreed to give up on some restricted assets. What is the most likely path to get to $135M incremental? What was listed as restricted: (https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/868464_1.pdf) $40M cash $70M LC Collateral $82M Investments $7M OA $63M All HA Bases $53M Donor Restricted Contributions $6M Misc Summit Assets $8M Annunity $345M Summit Note Now these were the values as of 2020 some time. They have been selling off their investments to provide cash. I expect that $82M is way down. Not sure about restricted cash. However, the $135M could be generated without touching any of the HA bases. Council number went from $425 to at least $500M. I'll be curious to see if it is a council by council settlement or if there is an overall agreement for all councils if a certain number is met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Eagle1993 said: BSA previously provided $115M, so not its $250M. So where is the additional $135M coming from? The only thing I could think is that National has agreed to give up on some restricted assets. What is the most likely path to get to $135M incremental? What was listed as restricted: (https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/868464_1.pdf) $40M cash $70M LC Collateral $82M Investments $7M OA $63M All HA Bases $53M Donor Restricted Contributions $6M Misc Summit Assets $8M Annunity $345M Summit Note Now these were the values as of 2020 some time. They have been selling off their investments to provide cash. I expect that $82M is way down. Not sure about restricted cash. However, the $135M could be generated without touching any of the HA bases. Council number went from $425 to at least $500M. I'll be curious to see if it is a council by council settlement or if there is an overall agreement for all councils if a certain number is met. Actually... if you look at BSA's last monthly statement below. Their Restricted Liquidity Balance is $135M. They just increased their offer (per WSJ) by $135M. I wonder if they are giving up 100% of their Restricted Liquidity ... it could just have been by chance these number match ... but I wonder if BSA is finding a way to keep their HA bases. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/2f5112e6-d8c5-4fe3-b63b-dab01932cba9_5180.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Eagle1993 said: I wonder if they are giving up 100% of their Restricted Liquidity ... it could just have been by chance these number match ... but I wonder if BSA is finding a way to keep their HA bases. Save the HAs at all cost, literally ALL costs? I guess that makes sense if they think with the new HA family camping and resort options the HAs will be year round money makers (BSA now in the resort business). But wow, that is a gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: Save the HAs at all cost, literally ALL costs? I guess that makes sense if they think with the new HA family camping and resort options the HAs will be year round money makers (BSA now in the resort business). But wow, that is a gamble. They should have dumped Summit. It looks like BSA may exit bankruptcy with no assets (including no endowment) other than 4 HA Bases and $500M in debt. When they increase annual fees to $150 each scout (Scouts Canada numbers), realize that $75/scout is likely paying the interest on the $500M in loans. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Eagle1993 said: It looks like BSA may exit bankruptcy with no assets (including no endowment) other than 4 HA Bases and $500M in debt I really, really, don't see how they get to $250 million without at least one if not two HA bases sold. But we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yknot Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 12 hours ago, fred8033 said: This is where I disagree. Really. I do disagree here. I hugely disagree that there was less opportunity. Mentors. Sleep overs. Camping. Lots of private locations (barns, shops, trips, etc). Previously also lacking YPT rules such as no one-on-one contact (getting in mentor's car). Parents trusting the great virtue of the volunteer leaders. ... This is where there is much in common with BSA. I'm not saying it's the same. I am saying it's naive to think it's fundamentally different. Abuse requires opporunity, time, privacy, etc. It is all there in 4-H just like BSA and many other programs. SLEEP OVERS ... https://www.deseret.com/2007/7/4/20028174/4-h-leader-in-tooele-is-charged-with-child-sex-abuse Monroe Music Makers in the Monroe County 4-H program ... https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/06/12/former-music-store-owner-convicted-in-child-porn-case-awaiting-trial-on-sex-assault/ 4-H Mentor and Coach ... https://www.abc15.com/news/crime/pd-former-glendale-4-h-coach-accused-of-sex-with-minor Acquittal, but very familiar comments. People testifying to volunteers good nature. People not believing accuser. Imagine this was 1980. This is how many trials would have gone. https://www.augustachronicle.com/article/20131006/NEWS/310069882 Search engines do yield far, far fewer results. Search engines have trouble with 4-H as a search parameter. Not key issue, but it is there. Much easier to search on BSA, YMCA, youth pastor, etc. I suspect it has to do with the 4-H as a tag and how it's search indexed. Change term from 4-H to YMCA or school or teacher or youth pastor and you get a current incident rate that is at least as high as BSA. I do believe 4-H as a search parameter is hard to queue up correctly. Looser boundaries may not be reported as 4-H. Family friend hosting a sleep over. Unless there is a cow or an animal, youth programs that don't immediately trigger "4-H" connection, example Music Makers. Scouting is "uniformed" and much more clear boundaries about inside scouting or outside. Reflecting back decades and you think about an adult friend / community member who taught you about animals or music and not necessarily a uniformed troop member. Do you immediately think 4-H? Or just a guy who did something wrong? Certain gender mixes and age mixes trigger less outrage. Seriously. Example is male youth with high school female teacher. In the 1970s / 1980s, this would not have been brought to police. If anything, friends would give a pat on the back and non-family adults would be not necessarily consider it abuse. ... NOW ... you see many female teachers regularily in the news arrested for sex abuse. ... I'd argue that was true with female-to-female also. ... And the nature of the incident is different, but yes, men tend to be the main predator. I think it opens many more possible cases once you recognize it was an abuse situation and not just a he's too old(20s) and she's too young. Or F/F or adult woman / male youth. I'm not debating a statistical difference. I'm asserting it's naive to 4-H has less occurences even though it has mentors, a loose program structure and a similar history to BSA. ... What I am betting is there is a definite difference in that 4-H doesn't have a 70+ years of records of volunteer incidents . I'm betting because it's recorded and administrated very differently. I don't think it's credible to claim it's due to search engine issues. It would be pretty magical if 4H was somehow invisible throughout the interweb. 4H historically has also always served far more youth than scouting. Right now the membership is somewhere around 6 million to BSA's 700,000. Even if many parents, lawyers, and the media somehow colluded not to link the 4H name to abuse cases, there would still be a lot of cases out there. Activities in 4H can be similar but the program dynamics are completely different as I outlined above. It is largely a group activity done in public. There are opportunities for abuse as there would be anywhere kids are present but they would appear to be less. There are a lot more women involved. Parents are also far more likely to trust a boy scout leader or a pastor with a child because of institutionalized assumptions about character. As I've also said before, in 4H as a kid you are much more on your own with other kids and it is more kid run. There is no real advancement process that drives adults to become directly involved with youth. The idea that a child wouldn't remember that someone who abused them was a 4H leader because of a lack of uniform is nonsensical. I don't mean to be defending 4H so much, I am more using it as an example that the scouting program is inherently attractive to predators and creates unique opportunities for them. I think until scouting confronts that and figures out ways to address it better instead of trying to deflect it as a societal problem that can't be helped, the future of scouting, and the kids in it, isn't safe. Others have been focused on the money and numbers throughout the bankruptcy process here but this is the aspect that has riveted me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said: Council number went from $425 to at least $500M. I'll be curious to see if it is a council by council settlement or if there is an overall agreement for all councils if a certain number is met. Same. This concerns me. I don’t see how this number is in any way an adequate representation of LC exposure or ability to pony up for it. How is this acceptable to the Coalition and will some LCs still resist and take their chances? So many questions. I wonder if this deal allows BSA to sneak the direct abuse claims (since 2.18.20) under the channeling injunction binkie. I’m also very curious to learn the TCC’s view, since they have not yet signed on. At these numbers, if this is global, we’ve gone from $6100 to about $9000. WooHoo. Phhhtttt. I believe in our TCC and pray for a better outcome than this. Edited June 17, 2021 by ThenNow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yknot Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 42 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: Save the HAs at all cost, literally ALL costs? I guess that makes sense if they think with the new HA family camping and resort options the HAs will be year round money makers (BSA now in the resort business). But wow, that is a gamble. Maybe this has been their strategy all along and why they have fought losing the HA bases. If you look at the problems with youth protection, liability, structural issues with oversight, insurance, BSA may have concluded it really can't run anything other than a family program at the national level. This way it will preserve the charter, preserve the boy scout name and legacy to some degree, and leave local scouting to whatever councils/unit survive or are able to continue on their own. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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