Chapter 11 announced - Part 3 - BSA's Toggle Plan

[johnsch322]

13 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Over the years I have seen the mention of the "perversion files" a number of times. Were these files specific as to "why" the scouter was on the list? The reason I ask is eagle1993s post references the entire list as though they were all abusers. I am not suggesting otherwise, I am asking whether the files were solely of abusers and suspected abusers or did they include names of people who  were labeled as "pervert". (as an example homoexuals have been labeled this way, perhaps adulterers as well). 

Yes the perversion files stated that individuals with names were abusers.  Some were labeled homosexual especially in earlier years.  In my case a government document says that he admitted to homosexuality but we all know that he was a pedophile. He was suspected of  abusing 11 to 13 boys in my troop.  The file is made up of numerous letters between the national and local council.

 

[CynicalScouter]

Next scheduled hearing dates filed https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/1a937a93-6226-4d6f-b425-3b83355a2462_5309.pdf

 July 21, 2021 10:00 a.m. (ET)

August 25, 2021 10:00 a.m. (ET)

September 23, 2021 10:00 a.m. (ET)

[Eagle1993]

34 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Next scheduled hearing dates filed https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/1a937a93-6226-4d6f-b425-3b83355a2462_5309.pdf

 July 21, 2021 10:00 a.m. (ET)

August 25, 2021 10:00 a.m. (ET)

September 23, 2021 10:00 a.m. (ET)

Are they keeping the June 17, 2021 hearing?

[Bronco1821]

It seems to me that Chartered Organizations should be held a lot more liable than they are.  In my case, it was the LDS church who appointed the individual who abused me to be involved in scouting.  They made all the decisions, did most of the training and making of the assignments.  I actually think it was more their fault than even BSA.

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, Bronco1821 said:

 

It seems to me that Chartered Organizations should be held a lot more liable than they are.  In my case, it was the LDS church who appointed the individual who abused me to be involved in scouting.  They made all the decisions, did most of the training and making of the assignments.  I actually think it was more their fault than even BSA.

 

As others have said and per previous LDS settlements, the church was much more involved than pretty much any and all other COs. In my experience, the parish priest stopped by Monday meetings very rarely. I recall he came to my Eagle Court of Honor, though. Regardless, the parish and school’s lack of engagement doesn’t excuse them, since they were supposed to be running the show!

Edited June 11, 2021 by ThenNow

[CynicalScouter]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Are they keeping the June 17, 2021 hearing?

Not that I saw/see.

[CynicalScouter]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

As others have said and per previous LDS settlements, the church was much more involved than pretty much any and all other COs.

Right, which is what makes the LDS situation for purposes of the bankruptcy more...complicated?

The claims (broadly) against the other COs were they they were negligent in failing to adequately supervise the programs and failed in their duty to care for youth entrusted to them. That's broad but hits the main notes.

The claims against LDS are, in effect, that they were actively engaged in thwarting reporting and actively engaged in covering up the mess.

Edited June 11, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

... since they were supposed to be running the show!

Yeah ... this is where most disagree.  Most everyone in scouting ... and the families of the scouts too ... know the churches were not running the show.   It was not a real expectation.  The unit leaders knew this.  The churches knew this.  The local councils knew this.  The problem starts with taking a 1920s casual "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington" style agreement and treating it as a more mature modern era legal agreement.  

Many time-honored hallowed organizations have this trouble.  Since WWII, roles and expectations continue to change faster and faster.  Organizations like BSA, Catholic church, etc just aren't able to keep their internal structures up to date. 

I myself continually shake my head wondering where BSA's lawyers were in the 1990s.  Revisiting charter partner agreements because they can be taken to mean more than they are.  Revisiting the practice of keeping a private record of effectively crimes.  These originally really good ideas became huge legal liabilities.  

 

3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

The claims against LDS are, in effect, that they were actively engaged in thwarting reporting and actively engaged in covering up the mess.

I could see that argument.  All youth often registered in scouting.  Bishop directly telling leaders they would be a SM.  Much more direct involvement.  
 

Edited June 11, 2021 by fred8033

[CynicalScouter]

1 minute ago, fred8033 said:

and the families of the scouts too ... know the churches were not running the show.

When I joined I didn't know this. And there's written documentation, signed by the COs, that indicated they would exercise supervision (the annual charter agreements). And that was in the 2010s.

The idea that brand new parents were suppose to intuitively "know" doesn't help. And, in the case of the LDS units, the exact opposite was quite clear and upfront: the distinction between the unit and the sponsoring LDS unit/church was non-existent.

[ThenNow]

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Yeah ... this is where most disagree.  Most everyone in scouting ... and the families of the scouts too ... know the churches were not running the show.

As in, they “know” practically, but not technically? The way I read both excerpts from old Charter agreements and cases, the COs signed up to be the responsible party on the ground with each Unit. The breadth of their responsibilities seemed pretty inclusive. As I said, what was demonstrated in my Scouting experienced looked nothing like what I have seen described in the documents. Am I understanding you correctly?

[yknot]

32 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

As in, they “know” practically, but not technically? The way I read both excerpts from old Charter agreements and cases, the COs signed up to be the responsible party on the ground with each Unit. The breadth of their responsibilities seemed pretty inclusive. As I said, what was demonstrated in my Scouting experienced looked nothing like what I have seen described in the documents. Am I understanding you correctly?

What I have seen in numerous COs near me is that they are mostly legacy units with relationships going back decades in the community and the members have no idea what those relationships are other than to provide meeting space and benign support. All they know is that once a year some nice person from the local boy scout troop whom they have known for years stops by and asks them to sign something.

Some COs were very hands on because they used scouting as an outgrowth of their youth programming and ministry. Others may have started out like that, but over the decades as church memberships declined and more kids joined from other churches and faiths, it was simply seen as a community service in which meeting space and benign support was provided. 

BSA was aware of this but didn't intercede because it would have decreased membership if some of these COs understood what they were truly responsible for. 

[CynicalScouter]

12 minutes ago, yknot said:

BSA was aware of this but didn't intercede because it would have decreased membership if some of these COs understood what they were truly responsible for. 

It was and is the biggest open secret in BSA: most COs wouldn't know what is going on inside the units if you asked. I once figured that, based on my experience with one unit, that the COR couldn't pick the Cubmaster out of a lineup. All the COR knew is once a year the committee chair showed up with some papers for him to sign and, every so often, left some papers in his box (adult applications) for signatures. That was it.

And this is a VERY common occurrence.

[5thGenTexan]

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

It was and is the biggest open secret in BSA: most COs wouldn't know what is going on inside the units if you asked. I once figured that, based on my experience with one unit, that the COR couldn't pick the Cubmaster out of a lineup. All the COR knew is once a year the committee chair showed up with some papers for him to sign and, every so often, left some papers in his box (adult applications) for signatures. That was it.

And this is a VERY common occurrence.

😮  When I need a COR signature, if he isnt at a Pack or Troop Committee Meeting, then I send a text asking when I can run by his house and he will sign for me in his front yard.  Sometimes he even lets me in the house.   

[CynicalScouter]

There are LCs that, at least publicly, are still absolutely in the dark about what is about to happen to them. And this is in NY, which has a lookback window that is closing soon.

Boy Scout bankruptcy may cost WNY councils, but no one knows how much

What local councils say

Officials at the Greater Niagara Frontier Council in Cheektowaga and at the Allegheny Highlands Council in Falconer told The News that they have not been made aware of how much their councils will be asked to provide.

“We don’t know what the actual number is going to be,” said Nathaniel Thornton, Allegheny Highlands Council executive. “We don’t know if we’re going to be asked to contribute or anything like that.”

Thornton said he’s also not sure what would happen if the councils were left out of the national bankruptcy case altogether.

“Obviously we want to compensate the victims the best way that we can, but other than that I don’t really have a preference how it gets done necessarily,” he said. “I want to be able to help and I want to make sure that scouting can continue to survive. And I think those are the two most important factors that we’re looking at.”

Greater Niagara Frontier Council Executive Gary A. Decker declined to be interviewed by phone about the bankruptcy, but he said in an email that the council’s local contribution “is not yet known, because it has not been determined.”

Iroquois Trail Council Executive James McMullen did not respond to a phone message.

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[johnsch322]

Any idea how long ago these statements were made?  The TCC said they had a presentation for each LC but were afraid National would not let them see the presentation.