Too Strict!

[SMT376Richmond KY]

OK asking advice once again. Just returned from a civil war renanctment camp out. Part of which included work on American Heritage MB. Our older scouts(13 were a young Troop) twas obvious to me and the two parents that came with us (one a former district unit commissioner)that these "veteran" scouts planned on a relaxing weekend since they had to be reminded that wood and water were needed items if they wished to stay warm, drink, and cook. Not to mention that attendance at the prescribed functions were required in order to receive the MB.

 

Well to make a long story short one decided that smarting off and back talking to the SM was a new part of the Scout law so in doing so volunteered to stay back at camp and work on camp beutification project with the two dads while the other 6 boys joined another Troop along with the SM so two deep leadership would be assured (or course about 200 scouts and scouters in the same hike all single file so YPT was maintained). This lad had a change of heart as the former DUC put it after 30 minutes of camp project so he rejoined the unit and participated.

 

The other soon to be 13 YO decided it would be fun to lock one of our new 11 YO scouts in the porta potty and rock it back and forth. This was on day 3 of a weekend outing with over 500 scouts attending so you can imagine the smell. Well when I looked up and saw this across the field I immediately but a halt to it since the john was about to tip over. Called the offending scouts back to camp only to discover it was one of of ASM's boys and our former SPL who last month reach the term limit and was voted QM instead by his Troop mates. I asked both it if was friendly, courteous or kind to be doing that to a new boy not the mention it could be considered hazing and thus result in revocation of their memberships etc. etc. that I did not want to or even hear of such unscout like behavior from both of them. The new boy was ok he said he wasn't scared and was glad I got them to stop. I asked if anyone else had similar occurances and was told these two lads had done it to one of the older boys the previous night. Both parents were infomred upon our return yesterday.

 

After these two lads left the pick up area three younger boys our new SPL included informed us that 13YO A and B have told them that they are quiting the Troo to join another Troop in town as I'm too strict. The newest boy said "too strict" for you just made us work!

 

So how do you wise SM handle situations like these I'm sure you've all had them. This was the first outing for our new SPL who is 12 and FC (fc first year you know). He did a good job in that unlike his predicessor he actually attempted to rally the boys and get jobs done. We simply backed him up when the guys wouldn't do anything.

[OldGreyEagle]

Well, unless you colored your story, which I don't think you did, there is an old expression that fits this situation, and I think is goes good riddance to old rubbish or don't let the door hit your backside on the way out or something like that. Sounds like you did the right things

[Double Eagle]

What did the SPL and patrol leaders council decide would be done for infractions like these. In the boy-led program, they should get first crack at fixing the problem. If it goes beyond them or is a safety issue adults should intervene immediately. Having a SM on the PLC side is the leverage to get some to conform. If the SPL is expected to lead in fun times, he has to lead during rough times too. You weren't too tough.

[EagleInKY]

Hey Richmond. This leadership stuff is tough at times. I had an equally frustrating occurence on a campout last week as well. Our SPL wouldn't let a boy play a particular game due to safety concerns. The boy got upset and started shouting some things ("this troop s*cks" and the like). I pulled him to the side and came within a gnat's eyelash of sending him home. Mom got called and she had a conversation with him. In retrospect, I wish I had gone on and sent him home. But hindsight is 20/20.

 

It sounds like you've handled things appropriately. If these troublemakers are gone, then you're troop will be better off for it. Unfortunately, they are probably going to be the ones who suffer. That is, if they are correct about the other troops not being as strict. They won't learn the discipline they need to learn in life. All they'll get from it is "if you don't like what one person is telling you, ask someone else".

 

I disagree on the concept of the PLC setting discipline rules. I believe that is a joint decision between the Troop Committee and the Scoutmaster. The junior leaders are responsible for carrying out rules and discipline as an activity is going on, but not - in my opinion - after the fact. What I mean is, the SPL is responsible for trying to stop the boy from rocking the toilet. But, after all is said and done, it is up to you and your troop committee in regards to how to handle the situation in regards to discipline or punishment.

[Twocubdad]

I'm with OGE. What's your hurry? Here's your hat.

[Eagledad]

>>But, after all is said and done, it is up to you and your troop committee in regards to how to handle the situation in regards to discipline or punishment.

[ozemu]

SMT376 some advice given to me by this forum some time ago was that I am SM to the Troop and that the individuals get a second place.

 

Now that is good advice but too general for me.

 

How much time do you have and how big an impact is the behaviour having on the innocent Scouts?

 

If your time (and patience) is short or the impact is unsustainable then I see no fault in what you seem to have done. It is the safe and surest option.

 

If your time, energy and the impact of their behaviour allow you to work with these boys then you may turn around a misguided fool or two. The road is normally long and rocky. The reward can be enormous for you, the Troop and the boy(s) (for parents too). You know the approach; strict up front and then put on the counsellor hat and help them work through their options in achieving the goals. You want attention and to show that you are independant then what different things can you do to show this...? What about that canoe trip you mentioned? Can I help you get that up and running - that would be something to be proud of

 

The default actions are what you have done already. If the time etc is available then maybe this can be win win all round - but the Troop is more important than one or two know it all young boof heads.

 

Dont lose too much sleep over it. Without the three things I mentioned (time, energy, impact) you cannot do anything for these Scouts and they are best out of the picture.

 

Good luck either way.

[SMT376Richmond KY]

Thanks all for you encouragement. I didn't put all the details in cause I really didn't want a long post but for brevatity the potty was at about a 60 degree angle and on top of the ridge about 1000 yards away so quick action was warranted before it tumbled with boy inside.

 

I spoke with both parents on our return and the older boys parent called me prior to last nights meeting said he wasn't coming due to illness (he did get sick the last night of the camp out). Three including my own were out of school yesterday and thus not at the meeting last night. The mom I spoke with last night said she was concerned that her lil lad didn't seem to be enjoying Scouts like he use to. I asked her why since last weeks SM minute I asked each why they liked Scouting and what they got out of it. This lad said it was fun and he hoped to make Eagle. She said he didn't tell her any reason. I told her he was at an age where he will be tempted to stray from the right path but if he stays focused and follows the Scout oath and law he will do alright. She said he would be back and thanked me for correcting him. She said he's feeling really low. I told her that was probably because he knows he did something he isn't very proud of and that I told both boys how disappointed I was in their behavior. This lad especially since he was a Troop leader and should be setting the right example especially in front of a new Tenderfoot.

 

Anyhow we had two scouts the offending tenderfoot and the second class with the smart mouth that said he was leaving. They both practiced fire building and actually had a good meeting with only two scouts. The young tender foot I took aside for a SM confernce and reflected and help him see that not only was the potty a cruel joke but unsafe as well. He appologized to me but I told I'm not the one he needs to appologize too. That if he thinks about it he know the ones he should appologize too.

 

Thanks again folks for the help.

[acco40]

My two cents worth ...

 

I'm in agreement that the boy leaders (PLC) should get a crack at handling the situation. I'm in disagreement that the SM has any involvement in discipline - that is the function of the Troop Committee. I'm also not in favor of issuing "punishment" for bad behavior - i.e. work on a beautification project. Now I can't tell in all honesty if the Scout was ordered to do that task as a punishment/discipline but I don't like the "if you screw up you get to clean the latrine" mentality. That is not our function as adult leaders.

 

I really like the response from ozemu on deciding if it is worth it to have the boy lead or not.

 

Yes, the SM role is not always fun and games!(This message has been edited by acco40)

[catsmasher]

On a campout, the Scoutmaster is like a ship's captain at sea. If a situation occurs that involves the boy's safety it is very much his responsibility to enforce the rules and discipline the boys. Boy led troop is an ideal - not an absolute. The adult leaders are there for a reason.

 

The idea of the committee being responsible for discipline isses on outings is unrealistic. They should have a say in any long term resultng actions such as suspension, letters to the parents, etc. But on the campout as the porta potty is tipping over - it is the Scoutmaster who has to deal with it and he can't say "wait until the next committee meeting".

 

This SM did the right thing. The best thing to do is set a good example, give the kids some room to be boys, but make it clear that they are to respect each other and do their fair share. Zero tolerance on hazing, bullying or physical abuse! Call mommy and have her come get the kid right then and there! If a kid punches another or is picking on another, they go home. No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

I told one scout that he couldn't get his first class rank at the next cour of honor because he had spent the last two campout saying that "Scouts s#@k" over and over. He straighted up and got his first class badge later and is now a patrol leader.

[OldGreyEagle]

"On a campout, the Scoutmaster is like a ship's captain at sea"

 

I dont think this is correct, the SPL is the ships captain, the Scoutmaster should just be along for the ride, if he (SM) has done his job

 

"I told one scout that he couldn't get his first class rank at the next cour of honor because he had spent the last two campout saying that "Scouts s#@k" over and over."

 

And this is wrong. By denying his advancement due to his behavior you added requirements to the rank, something you can't do. In effect you were bullying him, you witheld it because you could. Caling the parents to remove the obtuse scout is fine. Talking to the scout with his parents to set expected behaviors is a great idea. But witholding advancement is not. If that scout appealed to Council he would have received his rank (if all requirements were met of course) you can't decide to refuse a rank to a scout who has completed the requirements and the troop has signed off that he met the requirments,

[anarchist]

HEY OGE!

 

I have not been able to find the part in the Handbook that says broadcasting "scouts s#@k" at campouts is a new way towards demonstrating Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law? (first class requirement #10)...Can you enlighten me...(I owe you a bunch for your expertise, insight and great thought...but come on!)

anarchist

[OldGreyEagle]

anarchist,

 

I did say that I had no problem calling parents to take a scout home, and I also suggested a meeting with scout and parents to talk about what is acceptable behavior and what is not. I did not in any way condone the scout saying "scouts Whatever".

 

What I am saying is if the scout had completed all his requirments, and had a Board of Review and all was fine then withholding his advancement at the next court of honor is wrong. There are so many other ways of showing an errant scout the error of his way other then holding back on a rank, thats all I am saying.

 

[anarchist]

OGE,

we agree on the requirement that when the rank requirements are completed you can't hold them back...not an issue.

Once again, however, that ol' objective/subject bear keeps risin' up.

Many of us feel the Scout Law-Scout Spirit requirement (#10 for First Class) is as important as any other requirement. I would have to argue that "Scouts S#@k" seems to kick "a scout is loyal, courteous, cheerful", as well as perhaps "kind, and obedient" in the chops, don't you agree?

I keep sensing a strong 'do the physical stuff, cooking, first aid, merit badges etc. and the attitude, foul language, and behavior is not important' drift, through out many forum threads...Again, the "soccer syndrome,,,give 'em all a trophy just for being there or giving it a try". While this 'give em everything on a platter' policy is nice for preschoolers (maybe), scouting is supposed to be about aquiring skills and learning/demonstrating leadership qualities. Don't know 'bout you but I am not sure I'd want to follow a scout (or a manager) who kept broad casting "Scouts S#@K" or in the case of a manager/CEO(?) 'company s#@K". Am I that far "off the beam", OGE?

anarchist

[EagleInKY]

Actually, I think OGE an Anarchist are in agreement here. IF the BOR has already taken place, then the ranks have been earned and you cannot stop them. If that is not the case, then you have to address it for the next rank. Either way, now is a great time to step in and stop the bleeding.