In a Tough Spot

[CynicalScouter]

4 minutes ago, David CO said:

I don't agree with this 24/7 thing that national is pushing.  I totally agree that a den leader is not always acting as a den leader.  Sometimes a den leader is just being a dad.  A den leader can be off duty, so to speak.  I get that.

The reason that 24/7 rule is in place is because when scouts were sexually abused it was NOT always during a scouting activity. It would be Scoutmaster telling a scout "come on over to my house and we can work on your rank advancement", etc. There have been people posting on this very forum that have in fact said that is how they were abused: by a scout leader in the leader's home/some non-scouting location.

So, faced with the choice of a) writing a rule that limits Youth Protection Training/Guide to Safe Scouting to scouting events only b) writing the 24/7 rule, they went with the later because of BSA's past history in this area.

[Eagle1993]

8 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

The reason that 24/7 rule is in place is because when scouts were sexually abused it was NOT always during a scouting activity. It would be Scoutmaster telling a scout "come on over to my house and we can work on your rank advancement", etc. There have been people posting on this very forum that have in fact said that is how they were abused: by a scout leader in the leader's home/some non-scouting location.

So, faced with the choice of a) writing a rule that limits Youth Protection Training/Guide to Safe Scouting to scouting events only b) writing the 24/7 rule, they went with the later because of BSA's past history in this area.

I think the no 1 on 1 is a good idea in life.  I would never want to be with a kid that is not my own without someone else around.  If my son's friend comes over and I need to drive him home ... my son will come with.

Now ... the 2 deep leadership ... I'm sorry, but that is excessive.  My son has friends come over (including a scout) and I may be the only one at home.  If BSA cracks down on this, I'll drop my BSA membership.  I wonder if BSA bans single parents as leaders as it is very likely they would have this situation happen frequently.

[David CO]

18 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I would never want to be with a kid that is not my own without someone else around. 

Depends on the proximity.  I often hire kids to mow the lawn, rake the leaves, pull the dandelions, as well as other outside yard-care activities.  I think its good for boy scouts to earn some money and pay their own way. 

 

[CynicalScouter]

39 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Now ... the 2 deep leadership ... I'm sorry, but that is excessive. 

Again, let's look at it from the BSA lawsuit perspective. It is not uncommon to have a situation where an adult sexual abuser is "grooming" several kids, or perhaps is "grooming" the friend of the abuser's own child or even being a "friend of the family."

There have in fact been convictions where the SM admitted the practice of targeting his son's friends, etc.

So having a second child present but elsewhere in the house, or even another adult who is not YPT trained/mandatory reporter, doesn't work.

And in this sense, I'll say BSA is not going as far as it could. For example, Roman Catholicism's program (Virtus) requires 2 deep NON-RELATED leadership (e.g. your spouse cannot be the 2nd person).

All of the rules in Guide to Safe Scouting and Youth Protection Training, up to and including 2 deep leadership at all times, 24/7, start to make sense if you put it in the prism of "the LACK of this rule was used to successfully sue BSA and/or or some LC at one time or another."

Now, does that mean that this is going to be always enforced? Of course not, because that would require one of the scouts, scout parents, or scout leaders ratting out the out-of-compliance leader.

But what it does do is to provide some legal protection to BSA and the LCs. "See, we had a rule AGAINST just this kind of thing and the abusive SM just ignored it. Therefore, we were NOT negligent."

Edited April 29, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[David CO]

42 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

My son has friends come over (including a scout) and I may be the only one at home.  If BSA cracks down on this, I'll drop my BSA membership. 

This is the dilemma most of us are facing.  We were raised to believe that we should obey the rules and do the right thing at all times regardless of whether or not someone is watching.  A scout is trustworthy.  No crack-down should be necessary. 

My unit would not require one of our scout leaders to "log-in" every time his son has a friend over to the house to play.  That would be ridiculous.  The topic of this thread would not apply to that situation.

[MattR]

The topic is a cub and dl/parent visiting a troop. Can we leave it out of this as, I believe, there might be other threads on that topic? 

[David CO]

4 minutes ago, MattR said:

Can we leave it out of this 

I don't think so.  Not entirely.  There is a clear tie-in to this thread.  The 24/7 thing is relevant to this discussion in that the Cubmaster thinks the den leader should have informed him about his visit to the troop.  That's a 24/7 issue if I ever saw one.  I don't see how we could leave it out.

But I'm willing to drop it if that's the moderator decision.

[mashmaster]

3 hours ago, David CO said:

I hear that all the time.  

 

Visitors are allowed to observe our unit activities, but they are not allowed to join in.  

 

We would note any visitors in our troop log.  We would not report it to the visitors' unit.  If their unit requires notification of their visits, we would expect them to do it themselves.  A scout is trustworthy.

 

Your troop and paperwork is much more than any unit I have ever been involved with or even visited.  And that number is a pretty large number.  Also, all those units would let the visiting scout join in the reindeer games.

If I may ask, What type of organization is your charter?

 

[David CO]

1 minute ago, mashmaster said:

If I may ask, What type of organization is your charter?

When I was the IH, the Chartered Organization was the Athletic Department.  It has since been transferred over to the parish office.

 

6 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Your troop and paperwork is much more than any unit I have ever been involved with or even visited. 

The policies and practices were exactly the same for the scout unit as they were for the sports teams.  We did that intentionally.  

 

9 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Also, all those units would let the visiting scout join in the reindeer games.

Youth spectators weren't allowed to "join in the reindeer games" at sports events.  Only registered team members.

 

 

[Double Eagle]

As a district commissioner visiting new units and prospective organizations thinking of chartering units, I often had my bear and wolf granddaughters, in uniform, to accompany me.  It was two-fold.  I had them that night, and they could get a scout's view of the program.  I remember "Scout-o-rama" where any scout and unit came together to show scouting skills.  

The more public sees the uniform and manner in which it is worn, the better for us.  I see every scout as an ambassador to sell our program.  No problem with any scout visiting units.  The activities is a concern, but the age-appropriate activities listed above covers that.  

Lastly, I would expect any visiting scout to be uniform.  Nothing says BSA like the uniform, and hard to say being in uniform at any BSA meeting is a bad thing.

[mrjohns2]

On 4/28/2021 at 9:42 AM, David CO said:

No exceptions.  

I thought this was just a Scouter and his son visiting a troop? Not a den or pack activity? There are plenty of things a parent who is a Scouter and a cub could do and it wouldn’t be the business of the COR. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by mrjohns2