In a Tough Spot

[MtnFisher]

I'm the Cubmaster for a small pack, and have recently been put in an awkward situation.  My Bear Den leader and I attended Wood Badge training together and he ended up in a patrol with the COR from my oldest son's troop.  Unbeknownst to me, the COR invited my den leader to visit the troop the following Monday.  While I feel that common courtesy dictates that the COR should have let me know about the invitation, overall, I don't have an issue with an adult Cub Scout leader visiting a troop.

The issue that I have with the situation is that my leader came to the troop meeting with his Bear son in uniform and the Cub Scout was allowed to participate in the troop's activities.  When I asked the Scoutmaster if he was comfortable with what was going on, he indicated that this was allowable.  I have yet to find any written documentation on the BSA website that directly addresses this situation, but I seem to remember from past trainings that this is not acceptable.

Does anyone know if the documentation exists, and where I can find it?  I will need to have a conversation with my Bear den leader and would like to have it as backup.  I'm also concerned that if any rules were violated, my pack may suffer repercussions.  Hopefully this is not the case, but at the very least, I will now have to explain to the other parents in my pack why their Scouts can't visit a troop until they are AOLs, but another Cub Scout from the pack did.

Thanks in advance for any advice or direction you might have.

[mashmaster]

I don't see any rules or in fact any problems with this.  The boy got to do stuff with the older scouts and hopefully had fun.  Maybe that will excite him to join the troop when he is old enough. It would have been worse if he attended and didn't get to do anything.  He might have decided Troops are boring and don't want him.

I don't understand the point about why they should have informed you.  Any of your scouts should feel comfortable visiting any troop at anytime, not just when there is an invitation.

My advice would be to let it go, it is all good.

[fred8033]

Celebrate that the bear scout got to have a good experience.  Hopefully it creates excitement to continue in scouting.

Minimize the negative rules.   It burns bridges and destroys future friendships.  

... I'd ask this ...  What is your concern that you are looking for a rule?  I'm one that always leans toward following the rules.  But rules are usually there for a reason.  Avoid harm.  Be safe.  etc.   ... So, is there a concern?  Other cubs will want to go?  Scout will get experiences out of sequence?  Forget about the pack?  

Edited April 28, 2021 by fred8033

[MtnFisher]

Thanks!  My main worry was that there may have been YPT, or Guide To Safe Scouting guidelines that were violated, and that may cause issues or negative impacts for my pack.  If there's nothing preventing visits like this, then I'm fine with it too.

[mashmaster]

38 minutes ago, MtnFisher said:

Thanks!  My main worry was that there may have been YPT, or Guide To Safe Scouting guidelines that were violated, and that may cause issues or negative impacts for my pack.  If there's nothing preventing visits like this, then I'm fine with it too.

No YPT issues here.  The only issue would be if they were camping and he tented with a scout 2 years older than him.  But at meetings nothing that I can think of.

The only guide to safe scouting issue would be if they did an activity that isn't allowed for his age group, like shooting shotguns for example.  

It all good, welcome to the forum!

[David CO]

5 hours ago, MtnFisher said:

I'm the Cubmaster for a small pack, and have recently been put in an awkward situation. 

I don't know of any BSA rules that were violated by the visit, or for his failure to let you know about it.  However, if this were my unit, his actions would have violated several of my Chartered Organization's policies and practices.

As the Cubmaster, you are responsible for ensuring that your den leaders are following the policies and practices of your CO.  If you feel that the den leaders actions contradict these policies and practices, then you would have every right to raise the issue with him.

 

[David CO]

6 hours ago, MtnFisher said:

I will need to have a conversation with my Bear den leader and would like to have it as backup. 

You really don't need to cite any BSA rules as backup.  Just calmly and politely tell him your expectations.  You are the Cubmaster.

[CynicalScouter]

This is the official listing of AGE-APPROPRIATE GUIDELINES FOR SCOUTING ACTIVITIES https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf

Simply attending a Scouts, BSA troop meeting is by no means a violation of anything.

As for the specific activity, it depends on what. Were they using bow saws? Then no, the Bear shouldn't have been using a bow saw. Were they using knives? Then the Bear was OK (if they had Whittling Chip).

Were they doing knots and lashings? Then no problem.

Etc.

[mashmaster]

4 hours ago, David CO said:

I don't know of any BSA rules that were violated by the visit, or for his failure to let you know about it.  However, if this were my unit, his actions would have violated several of my Chartered Organization's policies and practices.

 

What policies?  How is it a bad thing to have a scout visit a troop meeting?  

[David CO]

26 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

What policies?  How is it a bad thing to have a scout visit a troop meeting?  

My Chartered Organization insists on being informed of all scouting activities involving members of our unit.  Every meeting.  Every trip.  Every training session.  Every visit.  No exceptions.  

How is it a bad thing for a den leader and his scout/son to tell the Cubmaster about their invitation to a troop meeting?

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by David CO

[mashmaster]

Our CO is much more hands off than that.  How do you handle a new prospective scout that just shows up that isn't part of your unit?  Would you turn them away?  My guess is that you report that they attended afterwards, but I could be wrong.

It isn't a bad thing, but it isn't necessary as well.  Potentially a scout wants to see and evaluate units separate from the rest of the den for some reason?  I am not saying that is why this happened, but it could happen.

[DuctTape]

I see this as conflating two distinct perspectives. Perhaps I am misinterpreting. 

1. The dad (and his scout) visited a troop.

2. The den leader visited a troop with his cub(s).

 

The fact that a father also is a den leader conflates the two. Unless he was acting in the capacity of the den leader then I would not expect him to communicate to the cubmaster except perhaps informally in casual conversation just like any other cub father.

Edited April 29, 2021 by DuctTape

[David CO]

18 hours ago, mashmaster said:

Our CO is much more hands off than that. 

I hear that all the time.  

 

18 hours ago, mashmaster said:

How do you handle a new prospective scout that just shows up that isn't part of your unit? 

Visitors are allowed to observe our unit activities, but they are not allowed to join in.  

 

18 hours ago, mashmaster said:

My guess is that you report that they attended afterwards, but I could be wrong.

We would note any visitors in our troop log.  We would not report it to the visitors' unit.  If their unit requires notification of their visits, we would expect them to do it themselves.  A scout is trustworthy.

 

[David CO]

50 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

The fact that a father also is a den leader conflates the two. Unless he was acting in the capacity of the den leader then I would not expect him to communicate to the cubmaster except perhaps informally in casual conversation just like any other cub father.

I don't agree with this 24/7 thing that national is pushing.  I totally agree that a den leader is not always acting as a den leader.  Sometimes a den leader is just being a dad.  A den leader can be off duty, so to speak.  I get that.

However, a den leader is always our unit leader at scouting activities.  This is particularly true if he is wearing the uniform with our unit number on the sleeve.  He is representing our unit.  We expect him to comport himself like a scout leader, and we expect him to "log-in" his activities.  

 

[DuctTape]

Just now, David CO said:

I don't agree with this 24/7 thing that national is pushing.  I totally agree that a den leader is not always acting as a den leader.  Sometimes a den leader is just being a dad.  A den leader can be off duty, so to speak.  I get that.

However, a den leader is always our unit leader at scouting activities.  This is particularly true if he is wearing the uniform with our unit number on the sleeve.  He is representing our unit.  We expect him to comport himself like a scout leader, and we expect him to "log-in" his activities.  

 

yes, If he is wearing the uniform with the unit number I agree he is acting in that capacity.

This goes along with the uniform as a method; it visually designates which group (council, troop, patrol, etc...) which the wearer is representing.