Masks in the outdoors

[WisconsinMomma]

Our Troop re-stated our outdoor program last month with a day of outdoor cooking.  We are in the middle of a second outing this month with an outing focused on rank advancement (older scouts teach newer scouts).  I am thrilled that the Scouts are meeting in person to do Scout stuf.  We also had a hasty and chilly outdoor court of honor and a few outdoor meetings last fall before it got cold and dark and the Troop switched to Zoom.

Our Troop currently wears masks at outdoor outings.   We have a lot of group interaction.  I am thinking about asking for masks optional soon at a parent committee meeting --- but --- I simply do not think it will have the support.  My husband the Scoutmaster says he wants to keep masks until "it is gone".   Our Committee Chair will favor continued mask wearaing (and she has vulnerable health), and so this is frankly going nowhere.

I do not know if I should even bring it up for discussion.  I expect our summer camp will require masks. 

At some point though -- I think we can safely go mask free in the outdoors?  Or is there too much close interaction for that to make sense?   Maybe wait for Fall?  

Our state is about 25% vaccinated and approx 60% of vulnerable individuals are vaccinated.  I do not expect that we will ever get to 100% vaxxed as a society, nor do I think vaccination should be required. 

Thanks. 

[qwazse]

If patrols were in fact pods spaced a hundred yards apart, you could relax mask wearing. But, that’s probably not your reality.

Cov-sars-2 seems perfectly content with half as many targets in which it may flourish. Your state needs higher numbers. 80% of adults vaxxed is a passing grade.

Let your SM be the SM in this case. Have him talk to other SMs in your district and observe how the scouts behave. This is not a committee decision.

 

[yknot]

There has been outdoors transmission even at outdoors sports practices so I think continued mask wearing for the time being is prudent.  Kids forget and don't realize they are standing too close or they are downwind of someone who is infected. By the fall, it sounds like we'll have at least one vaccine available for kids 12 and up so that will also help. 

[qwazse]

32 minutes ago, yknot said:

There has been outdoors transmission even at outdoors sports practices so I think continued mask wearing for the time being is prudent.  ...

It’s more complicated than that. The rate of outdoor transmission is low. But, we don’t know how much is mask vs. contact transfer. Moreover, an environment with low rate of transmission is only useful in areas with low prevalence. In areas with high prevalence, even low transmission activities  will result in a few new cases — even if masks are used.

Keeping scouts in the habit sanitizing surfaces is still a really big play. There’s lots of stuff out there besides this virus. But even a garden-variety cold could sideline a scout and his/her family a week before tests come back.

I haven’t found the summary data for the pediatric EUA on FDA’s site, so I can’t comment aside to say that broad vaccination for kids under 16 are unlikely to be available until fall. It’s a really tough sell. If too many kids get sick from the vaccination (even if the number is quite small) it could trigger a backlash against the entire strategy. So the pandemic guys must tread carefully.

[scoutldr]

I had a 40 year career in Occupational Safety and Health with extensive experience in designing, running and auditing industrial respiratory protection programs.  I can say unequivocally that 90% of the mask wearing practices and materials I see in public are absolutely worthless.  Masks with gaps, not covering mouth AND nose, ineffective filter materials, improper size of mask, facial hair, and other factors would all be OSHA violations.  I would focus more on frequent handwashing, social distancing, and awareness training, which will be much more effective.

[Chisos]

23 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I haven’t found the summary data for the pediatric EUA on FDA’s site, so I can’t comment aside to say that broad vaccination for kids under 16 are unlikely to be available until fall. It’s a really tough sell. If too many kids get sick from the vaccination (even if the number is quite small) it could trigger a backlash against the entire strategy. So the pandemic guys must tread carefully.

So, the CDC director said Pfizer/BioNTech for 12 and up might be approved as early as mid-May (though it's really the FDA's call):

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-pfizer-biontech-seek-u-172218004.html

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/cdc-director-rochelle-walensky-expects-schools-fully-open/story?id=76935219

Being able to vaccinate to age 12 before summer camp season would be a big deal, I think.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Chisos
Spelling

[yknot]

23 minutes ago, qwazse said:

It’s more complicated than that. The rate of outdoor transmission is low. But, we don’t know how much is mask vs. contact transfer. Moreover, an environment with low rate of transmission is only useful in areas with low prevalence. In areas with high prevalence, even low transmission activities  will result in a few new cases — even if masks are used.

Keeping scouts in the habit sanitizing surfaces is still a really big play. There’s lots of stuff out there besides this virus. But even a garden-variety cold could sideline a scout and his/her family a week before tests come back.

I haven’t found the summary data for the pediatric EUA on FDA’s site, so I can’t comment aside to say that broad vaccination for kids under 16 are unlikely to be available until fall. It’s a really tough sell. If too many kids get sick from the vaccination (even if the number is quite small) it could trigger a backlash against the entire strategy. So the pandemic guys must tread carefully.

We don't know a lot about Covid in general but the risk of contact transmission appears to be low, especially outside. There has been apparent transmission among youth athletes of sports where no one on one contact or equipment sharing occurs, like tennis. Masks, and as you point out frequent hand sanitizing, still seems to be prudent at this point, which is what I think the OP was asking for opinions on.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/surface-transmission.html

 

[yknot]

10 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

I had a 40 year career in Occupational Safety and Health with extensive experience in designing, running and auditing industrial respiratory protection programs.  I can say unequivocally that 90% of the mask wearing practices and materials I see in public are absolutely worthless.  Masks with gaps, not covering mouth AND nose, ineffective filter materials, improper size of mask, facial hair, and other factors would all be OSHA violations.  I would focus more on frequent handwashing, social distancing, and awareness training, which will be much more effective.

I agree people can't seem to figure out how to wear a mask properly. However I think empirical evidence suggests that even poorly worn masks can help prevent transmission. The virus certainly seems to transmit more readily in settings where masks are not worn. 

[Eagle1993]

I’ve been debating this in our Troop as well. I think masks for shorter outdoor gatherings are pretty easy requirement to comply with but I’m concerned about masks at summer camp within our site.  We did it last year and wearing masks for 12 hours straight, day after day, in the hot/rainy conditions at camp was a bit much.   We ended up strictly enforced masks outside our site and when cooking within the Patrol camp,  but were lax outside those settings.  We are still discussing how to handle this summer. 
 

In our town, 78% of eligible people have recipients their first dose, so I expect high vaccination rates by camp.

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Eagle1993

[hiker67]

10 hours ago, Chisos said:

So, the CDC director said Pfizer/BioNTech for 12 and up might be approved as early as mid-May (though it's really the FDA's call):

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-pfizer-biontech-seek-u-172218004.html

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/cdc-director-rochelle-walensky-expects-schools-fully-open/story?id=76935219

Being able to vaccinate to age 12 before summer camp season would be a big deal, I think.

But: "Only 52% of parents plan to vaccinate kids against COVID, poll reveals"

https://www.wave3.com/2021/04/07/only-parents-plan-vaccinate-kids-against-covid-poll-reveals/

[elitts]

20 hours ago, scoutldr said:

I had a 40 year career in Occupational Safety and Health with extensive experience in designing, running and auditing industrial respiratory protection programs.  I can say unequivocally that 90% of the mask wearing practices and materials I see in public are absolutely worthless.  Masks with gaps, not covering mouth AND nose, ineffective filter materials, improper size of mask, facial hair, and other factors would all be OSHA violations.  I would focus more on frequent handwashing, social distancing, and awareness training, which will be much more effective.

All of the regulations regarding masks under OSHA (and related orgs) are going to be about protecting the person wearing the mask.  The point of widespread masking isn't about keeping the person wearing the mask from contracting the virus, it's to keep the exhalations of infected people from spreading as much.  So while members of the public regularly wear their masks in such a way as to not protect themselves, the general purpose of widespread masking is still being achieved because even without a tight seal, the dispersion radius of exhalations are still significantly reduced. 
And unfortunately, while frequent handwashing, social distancing and awareness training may be more effective in general, with adults; those areas are much more complicated to beat into the heads of 6-25 year olds. (and particularly the 12+ kids) 

[elitts]

The best studies I was able to find put the transmission rate of COVID at around 5% for a close contact (and 10% for a household member).  They've also reviewed studies and concluded that the apparent transmission rate outdoors is about 18 times lower than it is indoors.  So that puts the outdoor transmission rate for a close contact at about 0.27% (about 1 in 37,000).  And even then, that 18 times lower number includes gatherings that were primarily outdoors, but that included indoors components and didn't factor out actual physical contact or surface related transmission.

Given that math, I'm disinclined to be particularly strict about masking outdoors, unless the scouts are going to be in a "close contact" situation. (within 6 feet for more than 15 minutes) 

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From the standpoint of getting an adjustment to your troop's policy past your committee, I wouldn't broach the subject as "eliminating the requirement", I would suggest you handle it by requesting a "clarification of the current policy".  Then phrase it along the lines of "Scouts, Scouters and parents must wear masks outdoors whenever they are within 6 feet of another person for more than a minute or two". And if asked why the issue needs to be reviewed you can simply say that you've had a question about whether someone needs to wear a mask outdoors when there is no one else around.

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From a practicality standpoint, I'd suggest getting your scouts something like these: Mask Lanyard  They make it much easier to have a mask ready at hand and therefore more likely to be used.  As opposed to the standard youth method of "cramming the mask in your pocket", then having to pull it out and unfold it in order to get it on.

 

[yknot]

49 minutes ago, elitts said:

 

From a practicality standpoint, I'd suggest getting your scouts something like these: Mask Lanyard  They make it much easier to have a mask ready at hand and therefore more likely to be used.  As opposed to the standard youth method of "cramming the mask in your pocket", then having to pull it out and unfold it in order to get it on.

 

Thanks. Those are a great idea. I just ordered some. We've been making our own out of rubber bands. 

[qwazse]

By now, scouts that have had school in-person a couple of days a week should have mastered mask management. They certainly should have been doing it at meetings. Hopefully the SM has taken them on some hikes and camp outs to observe their behaviors. Hopefully they've learned what materials survive a wet pack. Often times, when we say masks are mandatory, it means inside or working in close quarters. And we call our scouts on it "on the fly." Ours have not pushed back. I'm quite proud of them.

This year will be different than last year and SM's will need to adjust accordingly. And they need a committee to stand behind them. Let me emphasize, this should not be a troop committee decision. If the SM wants to apply the better part of caution, and it is posing no risk to the scouts, there is nothing to discuss. The SM is at the most risk of complications along with vulnerable relatives in the scouts' households. His/her sense of caution should be respected.

There might be SM's out there who are totally reckless. Or there are parents who are unnecessarily vocal and want to go beyond guidelines one way or the other. And that's a different story. We have committee to keep us from stupid or from caving to parents when reason says we should do otherwise. That's a different situation from the OP.

Finally, we can't base this summer's decisions on an extended emergency use authorization. It will come too late for many troops to react for summer camp. And, it probably won't reach down to 11 year olds. If we can get 80% of our adults vaxxed, it will forestall a lot of death. That 52% of parents planning to vaccinate their kids that @hiker67 referred to is a mighty fine number, but not one that I'd fret over until the end of summer. Those parents are more likely to be caring for an elder or more vulnerable relative. The other half of parents who are likely not in those situations are right to think long and hard about risk vs. benefit.

[mashmaster]

It is such a fine line.  We do lots of sailing with masks and when they are on a single person dinghy, they remove the masks.  At meetings we are outdoors with masks.  Only complaints we get are from Adults trying to make a political point. I shut those down.

One of our local schools recently forced all students to come into school to take a standardized test.  The cheerleading team apparently all had covid and spread it to 26 kids.  ugh