Ideas - What Can Prevent Abuse in BSA

[yknot]

1 hour ago, Owls_are_cool said:

 

Scouting does have higher expectations for leaders in terms of youth protection. In general, scouting does not have the win at all costs element that sports can have. If I have a scout not motivated to advance in rank, I am not to bothered by that. I worry more about how scouts treat each other at camp. The only time I raise my voice is when there is a fight or someone is not observing the blood circle.

Just as with sports, scouting experiences can be variable. There are plenty of troops out there that are run as paramilitary boot camps with lots of barking, shouting and shaming. It might not be the same kind of high pressure competitive environment as you get in a fast moving sport, but the verbal abuse is the same.  My kids have been in all kinds of environments -- bad coaches, good coaches, bad scoutmasters, good scoutmasters. Sounds like we would have welcomed you, because I agree those are the kinds of situations where a strongly worded adult viewpoint would be helpful. 

[yknot]

4 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Additionally, you also have to provide a drivers license once you get in the school to make sure you are even supposed to be there.  Not look at the picture and say ok, but it is scanned and checked against state databases.

Yes. There's that too. Thanks.

 

[Owls_are_cool]

54 minutes ago, yknot said:

My kids have been in all kinds of environments

I think this is a good thing (as long it does not involve assult and bullying). Looking back at scoutmaster training, they spent a lot of time on the program, but very little time on the proper way to interact with scouts. Woodbadge did a better job of this in that it demonstrated the patrol method and taught a bunch of interpersonal skills. (my experience though)

I just reminded myself that scouting has a version of "winning at all costs" and it is called "Eagle Rank at all costs." The second I, as scoutmaster, started to work on things outside of rank advancement, I started to get flak from some parents. I'd challenge the scouts to come up with a schedule of 9 campouts this year and determine the locations and most of the time troop meetings generally spent planning these. But some parents do not see the value of this, because it reduces the advancement progress at troop meetings. This also forces scouts to work on merit badges outside of troop meetings, which bothers the "Eagle Rank at all costs" parents also. This causes friction, but not to the level of parents/coaches wanting their son to get to the Little League World Series. 

What can reduce abuse in the BSA? It has to come down to the COs directly vetting adult leaders. Both of the CORs I worked with knew me and knew my character. The troop had a recent experience with a bad scoutmaster, so they (along with the COR) did some work to vet me. I had some time at ASM to prove my temperament. It has to be a team effort with accountability all around. There might be a role for unit commissioners in this process, but that would mean that they have to spend more time with the troop outside of key 3 and committee meetings. If we get the right people into these positions, then the abuse problem decreases. Needs to be more than "Are you a warm body? Congrats you are out next scoutmaster."

[David CO]

Participating in school, scouting and sports can be a little bit like watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding.  Some families are loud, exuberant, and intimidating.  Others are quiet, contemplative, and supportive.  It takes all kinds.  Kids need to recognize and appreciate different temperaments and styles.

I am concerned about how the focus on preventing child abuse often moves away from those things that are obvious forms of child abuse to the nit picking criticisms of other peoples styles, temperaments, and demeanors.  

Scouters should also stop using YP as an excuse for constantly running down sports.  It's getting tiresome.  Give it a rest.

Edited April 20, 2021 by David CO

[yknot]

58 minutes ago, David CO said:

Scouters should also stop using YP as an excuse for constantly running down sports.  It's getting tiresome.  Give it a rest.

Exactly. It's pointless and used as a distraction to avoid focusing on real issues. For instance, why have we never, ever seen any reporting or data on where and when abuse or injury cases have been most likely to occur in the scouting environment. I'm not talking about personal details just useful statistics, like most incidents have occurred at overnight campouts vs. troop or pack meetings or vice versa. We have nada. The only hint we have is when some new Thou Shalt Not is issued. 

[David CO]

9 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Additionally, you also have to provide a drivers license once you get in the school to make sure you are even supposed to be there.  Not look at the picture and say ok, but it is scanned and checked against state databases.

School security measures have increased as a response to school shootings.  It really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

 

[yknot]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

School security measures have increased as a response to school shootings.  It really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

 

Schools have increased security measures for a variety of reasons and they are all related to child safety and thus completely relevant to this discussion and scouting.   We've got issues in our units with custodial parents, grandparents, and guardians, restraining orders, and the like. File photo IDs may be coming soon to a BSA unit near you. 

[David CO]

9 minutes ago, yknot said:

File photo IDs may be coming soon to a BSA unit near you. 

When it gets to that point, perhaps we should just close it all down and finally admit we can't do scouting anymore.  

[Eagledad]

7 hours ago, yknot said:

Schools have increased security measures for a variety of reasons and they are all related to child safety and thus completely relevant to this discussion and scouting.   We've got issues in our units with custodial parents, grandparents, and guardians, restraining orders, and the like. File photo IDs may be coming soon to a BSA unit near you. 

No, not all is related to child safety. My teacher kids tell me many of the safe guards and policies are for protecting the teachers. Kids aren't stupid, they know how to take advantage of a system and some are willing. 

Scouting is becoming a thing of the past because the success of the program relies on trust. Even this discussion is how to undermine that process.  Scouting is a practice of applying the Scout Oath and Law instead of rules and policies. The culture (or is it counter-culture) wants rules and polices.

Barry

[Owls_are_cool]

15 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Scouting is a practice of applying the Scout Oath and Law instead of rules and policies. The culture (or is it counter-culture) wants rules and polices.

When I my son joined his current troop, the committee was big on having scouts and adults sign behavior agreements. Anyone breaking the agreement can be expelled from the troop and it was used eventually by certain parents to remove scouts they did not like. Since the troop split, I have been just using the scout oath and law. It covers every situation and it allows scouts to make mistakes and learn from them. 

[Oldscout448]

8 hours ago, David CO said:

When it gets to that point, perhaps we should just close it all down and finally admit we can't do scouting anymore.  

Yah hmmm, it could be quite useful to have a instantly updated list of who is authorized to pick up the scouts.  Case in point, about a dozen years ago one of our scouts was picked up by his dad right after the meeting as he had done many times before.  The scouters never gave it a second thought although the scouts mother had dropped him off. Mom arrived 5-10 minutes later and went absolutely berserk. Seems there had been an  ugly event in the last week involving alcohol, threats, maybe more.  Police had been called, restraining orders issued.

Mom called police and her lawyer threatened to  sue us, BSA, the CO.  Anyone and everyone. About 10  minutes (seemed like eternities)  later the scout called from home. Dad had just wanted to explain why he had to go away for a while to get his life straight again.  Scout cried, dad cried. Then dropped him off at home and drove away.

But could have ended much differently.  Still gives me the shivers sometimes, when I read about a deranged parent who killed his/her kids then themselves.
  
 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Oldscout448

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said:

When I my son joined his current troop, the committee was big on having scouts and adults sign behavior agreements. Anyone breaking the agreement can be expelled from the troop and it was used eventually by certain parents to remove scouts they did not like. Since the troop split, I have been just using the scout oath and law. It covers every situation and it allows scouts to make mistakes and learn from them. 

When we came to the Troop five years ago, the 'behavior agreement' was about three pages long... yuk.

We shortened it to this:

------------------------------------------------------------

I will behave appropriately during all Scout activities, living the Oath and Law, and demonstrating Scout Spirit at all times. I understand that misbehavior and inappropriate activities will not be tolerated.

I understand there will be consequences if my behavior is not acceptable.  I understand consequences can and will include warnings, sitting out during an activity, parent conferences, having a parent take me home from an activity, or exclusion from future activities until I earn trust in my behavior again, and demonstrate to my Scout youth and adult leadership that I can be trusted.

 

____________________________________________ _____________________

Signature of Scout                                                           Date

 

I have reviewed the Troop Handbook and discussed behavior expectations and consequences with my Scout.  Furthermore, I understand I must make arrangements to pick up my Scout from an activity if necessary, even if the activity is out of town.

 

____________________________________________ _____________________

Signature of Parent or Guardian                                     Date

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 We had to put in that last blurb because, on two separate occasions, we had to send a Scout home, but his parents had gone away while we were camping and said they couldn't get him.  That's one clue as to why he acted out  His grandfather came to get him.

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Yah hmmm, it could be quite useful to have a instantly updated list of who is authorized to pick up the scouts.  Case in point, about a dozen years ago one of our scouts was picked up by his dad right after the meeting as he had done many times before.  The scouters never gave it a second thought although the scouts mother had dropped him off. Mom arrived 5-10 minutes later and went absolutely berserk. Seems there had been an  ugly event in the last week involving alcohol, threats, maybe more.  Police had been called, restraining orders issued. Mom called police and her lawyer threatened to  sue us, BSA, the CO.  Anyone and everyone. About 10  minutes (seemed like eternities)  later the scout called from home. Dad had just wanted to explain why he had to go away for a while to get his life straight again.  Scout cried, dad cried. Then dropped him off at home and drove away.
But could have ended much differently.

That's why there is a section on the AHMR which says "Adults NOT Authorized to Take Youth to and From Events"

The burden is on the parents/guardians to inform the unit.  It would have never held up in court

[Eagledad]

8 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said:

When I my son joined his current troop, the committee was big on having scouts and adults sign behavior agreements. Anyone breaking the agreement can be expelled from the troop and it was used eventually by certain parents to remove scouts they did not like. Since the troop split, I have been just using the scout oath and law. It covers every situation and it allows scouts to make mistakes and learn from them. 

Yes, you are right. 

When parents visited our troop, I told them that the troop (troops in general) is a safe place. Most misinterpret that to mean that scouts are safe from physical and mental harm, but I explain what it really means is scouts are safe from  persecution for their bad decisions.

The nature of learning and maturing from wrong decisions is making wrong decisions. The challenge for the adults is accepting wrong decisions as growth toward good character, not bad character in of itself. Most adults find that a hard challenge because our parenting nature is to coach change into our children whether our kids want to change or not.

Adults have to learn to not react so that the scouts are behaving for the adults (meaning they hide their true behavior in fear of adult anger). But instead practice understanding why the made the bad decision based from the Scout Law and change so that they make good decisions in the future.

Truth is that 95% of a scout bad decisions aren't harmful to those around them, they are just in conflict with doing their best to be friendly, courteous, kind........ And, we turn into what we practice, not what we preach. If the scouts make continued bad decisions on the little things like proper wearing uniform, saying something unkind, refusing to help when it is expected, then they continue that habit in their bigger decisions that do apply that can be  harmful to those around them.

See, Scouting Spirt is simply just thinking of others before ourselves. That's all. Once we humans start processing our thoughts and decisions with those around us first, then rarely are decisions bad. The Oath says "do our best and our duty to god first, our county next, then others, by obey the scout law. Then we are to take care of ourselves last in that process. But, we find that when we take care of everyone else first, we by default take care of ourselves. 

I know it's not as easy as that sounds. We adults carry a lot of baggage and habits are hard to change. Adult's learn how to be mentors instead of coaches. As the troop culture matures, the Scoutmaster finds that as the scouts take more responsibility for the actions, then the bad decisions brought forward become more challenging. And, it is usually challenging for the adults as well.

Many times the knee jerk reactions to bad behavior is to create new polices and rules that punish everyone for one bad decision. Adults need to learn how to get the one person to identify why they make the bad decision and identify how they should change. Some bad decisions are harmful and need more thought on dealing with  the bad action. The adults should work with the senior scouts on ways to handle and correct the bad decisions. Everyone learns to trust and lean on each other to work toward solutions. That is how we want our scouts to be when they have families and become community leaders.

Barry

[Eagledad]

38 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

 We had to put in that last blurb because, on two separate occasions, we had to send a Scout home, but his parents had gone away while we were camping and said they couldn't get him.  That's one clue as to why he acted out  His grandfather came to get him.

We learned the hard way that sometimes the best reaction to bad behavior is to quietly ask the scout to call their parents. They always made the call. Not as a punishment, but for a period of calm. Many times bad behavior (really bad decisions I guess) requires time for thought instead of instant reaction. 

Many of the scouts felt calling parents was a punishment. But, they also knew it was a last resort and they pushed too far. Once they were asked to make the call, there was no going back. And it wasn't just the adults, the senior scouts could make the decision. They rarely did without first talking to the SM.

But, as inquisitivescouter pointed out, sometimes the real problem is at home. That is a hard thing to figure out. There are all kinds of signs, but the adults just need to watch. I knew one scout had a bad day because he didn't wear his uniform. He always wore it with pride. Instead of asking why he didn't wear it, I asked if everything was OK. He broke down explaining that his parents just told him they were getting divorce. Another scout was lashing out verbally and it turned out his mom decided to marry a boy friend he didn't like. Another scout was being picked on by his classmates at school. Many of these scouts live complicated lives and we need to be a patient refuge. 

Barry