Chapter 11 announced - Part 2 (after the big slow)

[fred8033]

4 hours ago, yknot said:

BSA is different by nature of what we do with kids and when and where we do it. I think you have to recognize that and understand it as a risk specific to scouting before you can make any headway with understanding why YP is such an issue. There is no huge issue in 4-H.  There are very few cases reported involving 4-H leaders. No one's hiding them, they just haven't been reported.  I'm sure there are some random adults attached to some random clubs that abused kids, but it's not occurring in the 4-H setting to the degree it does in scouting. 

Same behaviors exist in many organizations.  Sports.  Church youth groups.  And in 4-H.  Maybe 4-H is truly special.  I'm not a 4-H expert.  But then again, you can find incidents as you indicated earlier.

• https://www.deseret.com/2007/7/4/20028174/4-h-leader-in-tooele-is-charged-with-child-sex-abuse
• https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abuse-charged-at-4-h-summer-camp/

I am creeped out with several 4-H YP postings that emphasize volunteers are not mandatory reporters ... in their area.  States are inconsistent with rules.  I'm just surprised 4-H did not say all 4-H volunteers will act as mandatory reporters and MUST report.   Others documents use the words "can" and "should" instead of must.  

• https://www.udel.edu/content/dam/udelImages/canr/pdfs/extension/4H/club-management/Child-Abuse-Neglect.pdf
• https://www.extension.iastate.edu/4h/files/page/files/Child Abuse Awareness and Reporting (2).pdf
• https://www.clemson.edu/extension/newberry/4h/files/volunteer-files/Vol_Handbook 18-19.pdf

 

Failure to recognize this as a broad society based issue is the real risk to kids.  Putting it on BSA is less about protecting kids and more about finding someone to blame.

[David CO]

11 minutes ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

At the campfire before bedtime, some of the Scouts talked about some time at least one of them had played "strip poker" before, and made plans to play it that night. A leader overheard them, and told them that "strip poker" was against the rules of BSA as well as the teachings of their church, which was also the CO.

Right you are.  Strip BINGO maybe.  But definitely not strip poker.  

 

[Eagledad]

15 minutes ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

 

Thank you for having advocated to make sure that kind of abuse would be included. However, as it's actually written, the plain language on the claim form includes all youth-on-youth abuse, no matter what the level of adult involvement.

Consider the following incident I remember from when I was a Scout. At the campfire before bedtime, some of the Scouts talked about some time at least one of them had played "strip poker" before, and made plans to play it that night. A leader overheard them, and told them that "strip poker" was against the rules of BSA as well as the teachings of their church, which was also the CO.

If he hadn't luckily overheard them, would one (or all) of them now have a claim? I think "yes", by what the claim-form actually says.

But I don't know how many of the claims are for such youth-on-youth incidents. It seems like the insurers are focusing on the credibility of the claimants and the process used by certain claimant lawyers, so maybe it's not a significant number of the claims.

I would have thought there would have to be some predator motivation to make a claim. I don't see a predator in your incident. A lot of scouts used to go down stream at summer camp to skinny dip. Claims?

Barry

[skeptic]

23 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I would have thought there would have to be some predator motivation to make a claim. I don't see a predator in your incident. A lot of scouts used to go down stream at summer camp to skinny dip. Claims?

Barry

Maybe, in today's atmosphere.  Things once considered just normal life's activity today often draw strange responses, especially when they get brought up in a multigenerational interaction.  Kind of like the idea that somehow we survived some possibly bad ideas such as riding in the back of trucks with little or nothing to keep us in place.  Or, as foolish dare devils jumping off of high places into unknown water, or drag racing.  I find myself wondering how I ever made it out of childhood with not bike helmet, no seat belts, no required life jackets for poor or non swimmers, or even just playing in the streets at dusk.  Yet we did.  

 

[Eagledad]

24 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Maybe, in today's atmosphere.  Things once considered just normal life's activity today often draw strange responses, especially when they get brought up in a multigenerational interaction.  Kind of like the idea that somehow we survived some possibly bad ideas such as riding in the back of trucks with little or nothing to keep us in place.  Or, as foolish dare devils jumping off of high places into unknown water, or drag racing.  I find myself wondering how I ever made it out of childhood with not bike helmet, no seat belts, no required life jackets for poor or non swimmers, or even just playing in the streets at dusk.  Yet we did.  

 

Yes, but when we are talking about 600 claims, skinny dipping and strip poker doesn't rate up their with some of the monstrous stuff being talked about.

Barry

[5thGenTexan]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

 

 

Failure to recognize this as a broad society based issue is the real risk to kids.  Putting it on BSA is less about protecting kids and more about finding someone to blame.

But this is 100% about BSA.  Volunteers under the BSA program took advantage of youth in horrible deviant ways.  Those volunteers failed and the youth paid the price.  There is do doubt there is sexual abuse in all of our society, but that doesnt excuse the BSA in this particular matter.  For now this is about the claims against BSA.

[David CO]

22 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Yes, but when we are talking about 600 claims, skinny dipping and strip poker doesn't rate up their with some of the monstrous stuff being talked about.

Barry

Yeah, but I understand where they are coming from.  Many people feel that, by allowing kids to develop a casual attitude towards nudity, adults are reducing their inhibitions and thereby increasing the risk of abuse.  I disagree with this viewpoint, but I do understand it.

As I said on the other thread, sexual curiosity is the pedophiles best friend.  By satisfying the natural curiosity that children have about sex, we protect them from child abuse.

I think the things we used to do, like group showers and skinny dipping, helped to satisfy our natural curiosity.  We were less susceptible to pedophiles.  We had no curiosity about male bodies.  We had already seen everything that could be seen at the Y.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by David CO

[ThenNow]

2 hours ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

I don't know how many of the claims are for such youth-on-youth incidents. It seems like the insurers are focusing on the credibility of the claimants and the process used by certain claimant lawyers, so maybe it's not a significant number of the claims.

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by ThenNow
Never mind...

[David CO]

I was never approached by a pedophile.  I exuded a confidence that acted as a natural repellant to pedophiles.  Like Deet to a mosquito.  Like garlic to a vampire.  Like kryptonite to superman.  My parents gave me this confidence, and I will be forever grateful to them.

Rules and regulations are not the most effective deterrent to child sexual abuse.  The most effective deterrent is to raise your children to be strong, smart, and confident kids.  Pedophiles hate that.

 

[yknot]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Same behaviors exist in many organizations.  Sports.  Church youth groups.  And in 4-H.  Maybe 4-H is truly special.  I'm not a 4-H expert.  But then again, you can find incidents as you indicated earlier.

• https://www.deseret.com/2007/7/4/20028174/4-h-leader-in-tooele-is-charged-with-child-sex-abuse
• https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abuse-charged-at-4-h-summer-camp/

I am creeped out with several 4-H YP postings that emphasize volunteers are not mandatory reporters ... in their area.  States are inconsistent with rules.  I'm just surprised 4-H did not say all 4-H volunteers will act as mandatory reporters and MUST report.   Others documents use the words "can" and "should" instead of must.  

• https://www.udel.edu/content/dam/udelImages/canr/pdfs/extension/4H/club-management/Child-Abuse-Neglect.pdf
• https://www.extension.iastate.edu/4h/files/page/files/Child Abuse Awareness and Reporting (2).pdf
• https://www.clemson.edu/extension/newberry/4h/files/volunteer-files/Vol_Handbook 18-19.pdf

 

Failure to recognize this as a broad society based issue is the real risk to kids.  Putting it on BSA is less about protecting kids and more about finding someone to blame.

It's not that any organization is special, it's that scouting creates specific and unique risks. I don't know if you noticed but one of those 4-H reports is from 2007 and the other is not about sexual abuse at all, it's about a bunch of teenage counselors running their own fight club. There are not a plethora of 4-H reports. 

BSA should be expected to have the gold standard YP program because it is the only youth organization that at least monthly has unrelated adults take unrelated kids off to remote locations without cameras or any other kind of public supervision for lengthy, overnight trips. 4-H policies may vary by state, but they've never claimed to be the national gold standard. And in some states they exceed BSA standards. In California, for example, a 4-H leader has to call police if they find they've been left alone with a member because a parent is late for pick up. It's myopic and unproductive to think that BSA shouldn't have higher standards and be able to uphold them. But sadly, as we have all read on this forum, despite actually having national policies that are supposed to be consistently applied, we don't do so. YP is an inconsistent mess. For every SM who runs a tight ship it seems based on what is posted here there are dozens who don't. The other issue with BSA that it shares with the Catholic Church and other religious entities is that it claims the moral high ground. It's whole orthodoxy is based on the concept that a scout is trustworthy, so parents can be lulled into being more trusting when handing their children over to scout leaders. 

I completely agree that abuse of children is a societal problem. I completely disagree that that exonerates BSA in any way for what has happened in its organization.  Child abuse can and does happen anywhere, but it clearly happens more in scouting. We provide a unique environment for it to occur. Until we are able to honestly confront that ugly fact, we can't really improve youth protection. 

[MikeS72]

3 hours ago, David CO said:

True.  This happens all the time.  It is really annoying.  

 

I recall an incident decades ago, where a middle school boy went home and told his father that his P.E. teacher made him go into a closet and take his clothes off.  Naturally, the school received a very angry phone call the next day.

I was asked by the school administration if I could verify if this had actually happened, as I was present in the locker room at the time.  Indeed I could.  The actual fact was that this was a student who did not feel like participating that day, so he just happened to 'forget' his uniform.  The 'closet' in question was a 10' x 10' room with shelves full of uniforms of all different sizes that were availble to be borrowed by any student who 'forgot' to bring their own that day.  They would change in that room, often 2 or 3 each period, and leave some item on the shelf, to insure that they would return the uniform, which would then be washed by the staff.

I guess said student forgot to mention any of that to Dad.  He also forgot that the policy back then was that if someone was borrowing a uniform, the teacher never went into the room with them, and was never in the locker room without another teacher present to verify that fact.

It took all of 3 or 4 minutes for the whole thing to be cleared up, but had we not instituted our own '2 deep' policy it could have ended a good teacher's career.  Context wise, this incident took place in the late 1970's.

[David CO]

7 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

The actual fact was that this was a student who did not feel like participating that day, so he just happened to 'forget' his uniform.  The 'closet' in question was a 10' x 10' room with shelves full of uniforms of all different sizes that were availble to be borrowed by any student who 'forgot' to bring their own that day.  They would change in that room, often 2 or 3 each period, and leave some item on the shelf, to insure that they would return the uniform, which would then be washed by the staff.

I did exactly the same thing in my gym classes in the 80's.  Except I told the kids to take the borrowed uniform and change at their locker.  Doesn't help if the kid "forgets" to bring gym shoes.  We didn't have borrowed shoes.

Gym teachers are particularly susceptible to these false claims.  I had three of them back when I taught gym early on in my career.  All three of them were cleared up on the same day as the false claim was made.  Two of them were cleared up during the same class hour.  Some kids get really angry about having to participate in gym activities they don't like, and feel justified in making false claims against the teacher.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, MikeS72 said:

I recall an incident decades ago, where a middle school boy went home and told his father that his P.E. teacher made him go into a closet and take his clothes off.  Naturally, the school received a very angry phone call the next day.

 

1 hour ago, David CO said:

Some kids get really angry about having to participate in gym activities they don't like, and feel justified in making false claims against the teacher.

It' s not just in schools either. Good friend of mine was placed in the IVF because a Scout accused her of making a pass at him. She caught him after lights out in the women's showers area being a peeping Tom, among other things. A criminal investigation occurred, and they found enough evidence that he left  to verify her story. She was never charged with a crime, but she was still barred from being a Scouter because of his accusation. Further her reputation was ruined because she was she was removed. This is the same "Scout" who lied about me and another adult giving him permission to stay out after hours at a national event. Thank goodness his accomplices fessed up that he was lying about us.

[Eagle94-A1]

8 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

The CDC has setup NCANDS: About NCANDS | The Administration for Children and Families (hhs.gov) This is a voluntary database that the BSA has been lobbying to make mandatory for youth serving organizations.  It would provide cross organizational tracking and would obviate the need for the BSA to maintain a separate system as they would report incidents to this database.  The BSA and its consultants have supported the establishment of NCANDS as well as supporting mandatory reporting.

After what is happening to the BSA because of their internal database, I do not think any lawyer for a youth organization in their right mind would say this is a good idea. It opens them up to lawsuits.

[Eagledad]

3 hours ago, David CO said:

Yeah, but I understand where they are coming from.  Many people feel that, by allowing kids to develop a casual attitude towards nudity, adults are reducing their inhibitions and thereby increasing the risk of abuse.  I disagree with this viewpoint, but I do understand it.

As I said on the other thread, sexual curiosity is the pedophiles best friend.  By satisfying the natural curiosity that children have about sex, we protect them from child abuse.

I think the things we used to do, like group showers and skinny dipping, helped to satisfy our natural curiosity.  We were less susceptible to pedophiles.  We had no curiosity about male bodies.  We had already seen everything that could be seen at the Y.

 

 

I agree as far as not allowing such things, but not calling it abuse.

Barry