Chapter 11 announced - Part 2 (after the big slow)

[Eagle1993]

24 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Which is what Kosnoff wants.

Partially ... what he wants (and some other lawyers per their submissions) is the following.

1) Continue to reject all plans from National BSA.  By doing this, you essentially force National into Chapter 7 as they have no other path to exit bankruptcy.

2) When National BSA goes Chapter 7, argue that since there is no entity left to renew charters of local councils, every local council charter is not renewed.  Per LC agreements, if a charter is not renewed, all assets from the local councils go to National and are then part of the Chapter 7.

The result is the complete and total liquidation of the entire BSA.  I see 0% chance this will happen but I think this is what some lawyers are hoping for.

[ThenNow]

5 hours ago, ThenNow said:

FYI. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boy-scouts-pressured-to-end-bankruptcy-explore-leaving-local-councils-behind-11618274576?st=r5sccvtar4cix77&reflink=article_copyURL_share

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=boys+scouts+to+offer+new+plan&t=brave&ia=web

From Reuters. The big BUT..."Yeah, we know. This will really suck for the survivors, but look at it this way! We will save money! Just one more way we can say, we so desperately want to 'equitably compensate all abuse survivors'." Oh, joy. Oh, rapture. 

That plan would be “worse than sub-optimal” for the survivors, Lauria said, as it would raise complicated issues surrounding shared insurance policies with local councils, which would make it harder for the survivors to be compensated. But, she noted, it would also save the Boy Scouts millions of dollars in legal fees, which as of March had hit $100 million, by moving the case along faster.

https://www.reuters.com/article/bankruptcy-boy-scouts-idUSL1N2M532D

[vol_scouter]

My fear is that all of this is occurring in the backdrop of the tremendous membership loss that is hopefully driven mostly by the covid pandemic.  This new course of action will likely force a new model because chartered organizations will withdraw swiftly.  Currently, that will quickly tank membership and lead to collapse of the movement.  Even if a new model is swiftly put into place, meeting sites will become hard to find.  

Though lawsuits could stretch out for some time, I foresee relatively rapid failure of councils if the CO's withdraw and there is no place to meet.

Hopefully, this is an overly gloomy vision but I believe that kosnoff will be successful.  

[5thGenTexan]

27 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

My fear is that all of this is occurring in the backdrop of the tremendous membership loss that is hopefully driven mostly by the covid pandemic.  This new course of action will likely force a new model because chartered organizations will withdraw swiftly.  Currently, that will quickly tank membership and lead to collapse of the movement.  Even if a new model is swiftly put into place, meeting sites will become hard to find.  

Though lawsuits could stretch out for some time, I foresee relatively rapid failure of councils if the CO's withdraw and there is no place to meet.

Hopefully, this is an overly gloomy vision but I believe that kosnoff will be successful.  

I am not sure how it is other places, but local sports are doing their signups right now.  When official Scout recruiting doesnt happen till late August or September all the youth have already decided what they are going to be involved in the Spring.  That doest help increase membership.  

[elitts]

On 4/11/2021 at 2:07 PM, T2Eagle said:

Conceding up front that I don't know what kind of profits HA bases currently throw off, it seems unlikely that they're exceptionally lucrative.  Nothing in BSA's past 20 years of finances would suggest that they were reaping millions let alone billions from those operations.

No sale has to be so quick that they wouldn't get fair market value for the properties, and either paying out or having those monies invested by and on behalf of the trust seems like a better bet than hoping an organization that's adverse to your interests, is steadily shrinking in membership, and has not demonstrated any particularly great business acumen would generate large profits on your behalf.

These are all very specialized properties because Philmont at least is too large to sell to a single buyer outside of a government; getting maximum value out of them would likely take years.  They could probably get one of the major logging companies to buy it, but it would be at a fairly steep discount.  Other than that, it would need to be broken up into pieces to truly maximize the sale price.

20 hours ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

That could be fodder for the claimant committees to argue that the HA bases are in fact available for liquidation as part of a settlement. The open sale of camping-time to non-Scouts could even call BSA's non-profit status into question. It might help defend against such complaints if there was a "hardship discount", where, for example, families with income below the poverty line could have their camping fees partially or fully waived.

There has been a trend in many places across the country when it comes to tax exempt property to allow some commercial use of tax exempt property IF the for-profit use is solely to subsidize the "non-profit" operations. On of the big drivers of this has been Goodwill pursuing tax exempt status for their stores.  So as long as the commercial use of the property can be clearly tied to covering required expenses, they'll probably be ok in many states.

19 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

That horse left the barn years ago.  The BSA has settled multiple cases in and out of court already.  You've already paid.

But as far as I'm aware, most, if not all, of the settlements thus-far have been funded by insurance policies.

7 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Given that BSA is now saying (in the media & court documents) if the grand bargain fails, councils will likely go bankrupt,  I think they realize and are admitting those claims are likely worthless.

On the plus side, local councils will have a much stronger argument for retaining their local camps as integral and irreplaceable  business components than the National BSA does.  So even if they go for a re-organization under the bankruptcy laws, it may not be a doomsday scenario.

7 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Which is what Kosnoff wants.

Attorneys like him make me want to find some way to burn up every single cent fighting before the end.  Which I realize isn't awesome for the victims, but still.  I would really really LOVE for there to be a way to limit the attorneys to a strict reimbursement of time and expenses rather than a massive chunk of any award.

[DavidLeeLambert]

Another interesting, even if minor, twist in this case...

Quote

Your Honor I'm in prison in Calif. I can't make toll free calls or use a computer. I do not have [an] attorney and I'm dyslexic. So [writing] you is not [easy] for me. [...] The mail from Omni Agent Solution is not sent legal mail coming in nor can we send it out legal mail. The mail room does not look as Omni as a plan that [sends] out legal [mail].

D.I. 2581. "Letter Requesting assistance with the BSA case. Filed by T.W. . (NAB)"

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/886180_2581.pdf

(And Omni's office is in California!)

[David CO]

3 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

Currently, that will quickly tank membership and lead to collapse of the movement. 

It could be the end of BSA, but it will not collapse the scouting movement.  The scouting movement is bigger than BSA.  It will survive.

Edited April 13, 2021 by David CO

[vol_scouter]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

I could be the end of BSA, but it will not collapse the scouting movement.  The scouting movement is bigger than BSA.  It will survive.

Without a national council to cover liability issues and the unpopularity of Scouting with many people, I am not o certain.  It might return in the future but my opinion is that it dies for now.

[David CO]

1 minute ago, vol_scouter said:

Without a national council to cover liability issues and the unpopularity of Scouting with many people, I am not o certain.  It might return in the future but my opinion is that it dies for now.

Not a chance.  WOSM will not leave the USA without a scout association.

 

[David CO]

The worst possible outcome would be having us all stuck with a BSA which is barely surviving on life support, unable to serve the youth members, but just alive enough to prevent WOSM from appointing a new successor scout association.

I think the executives will try to hang on to their jobs for as long as they can, no matter how negatively it effects the kids.  

Edited April 13, 2021 by David CO

[5thGenTexan]

19 minutes ago, David CO said:

Not a chance.  WOSM will not leave the USA without a scout association.

 

But...  After its all said and done, does the general population care about WOSM?  Or is it going to be perceived as same people different name.... No thanks.  

How far can Scouting go if its tainted in public opinion?  

[David CO]

Just now, 5thGenTexan said:

How far can Scouting go if its tainted in public opinion?  

I don't think scouting is tainted.  BSA is tainted.

 

[carebear3895]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

I don't think scouting is tainted.  BSA is tainted.

 

The two are synonymous in the mind of your average American 

[David CO]

2 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Or is it going to be perceived as same people different name.... No thanks.    

I totally agree.  The new scout association will have to completely disassociate itself from BSA in the public mind.  

[5thGenTexan]

Just now, David CO said:

I don't think scouting is tainted.  BSA is tainted.

 

Yeah, but those outside of all this that arent already really involved dont know or care about the difference.  

When you go and read comments on news stories we (registered adult leaders) are thrown in the generalization of pedophiles.  I fear that ship has already sailed.  I am not saying its right, just that how it looks out there.