Chapter 11 announced - Part 2 (after the big slow)

[qwazse]

17 hours ago, ThenNow said:

... 3) There is great consternation and disagreement within National about putting up High Adventure Bases and some (all?) decision makers are resisting at all cost ...

 

And they rightly resist putting up HAs. Victims’ lawyers should be concerned as well. Sell the HA’s for a quick buck, strangle income, and their clients stand to miss out on billions over the next 20 years.

[ThenNow]

5 hours ago, qwazse said:

Victims’ lawyers should be concerned as well. Sell the HA’s for a quick buck, strangle income, and their clients stand to miss out on billions over the next 20 years.

Would you clarify, please? Thanks. 

[T2Eagle]

6 hours ago, qwazse said:

And they rightly resist putting up HAs. Victims’ lawyers should be concerned as well. Sell the HA’s for a quick buck, strangle income, and their clients stand to miss out on billions over the next 20 years.

Conceding up front that I don't know what kind of profits HA bases currently throw off, it seems unlikely that they're exceptionally lucrative.  Nothing in BSA's past 20 years of finances would suggest that they were reaping millions let alone billions from those operations.

No sale has to be so quick that they wouldn't get fair market value for the properties, and either paying out or having those monies invested by and on behalf of the trust seems like a better bet than hoping an organization that's adverse to your interests, is steadily shrinking in membership, and has not demonstrated any particularly great business acumen would generate large profits on your behalf.

[ThenNow]

2 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

Conceding up front that I don't know what kind of profits HA bases currently throw off, it seems unlikely that they're exceptionally lucrative.  Nothing in BSA's past 20 years of finances would suggest that they were reaping millions let alone billions from those operations.

No sale has to be so quick that they wouldn't get fair market value for the properties, and either paying out or having those monies invested by and on behalf of the trust seems like a better bet than hoping an organization that's adverse to your interests, is steadily shrinking in membership, and has not demonstrated any particularly great business acumen would generate large profits on your behalf.

Thanks. I was confused by the previous post as to how it would be detrimental to survivor claimants, now or later. At this point, the fact that the restriction game is being played makes life that much more difficult. From the assessments I've seen here and elsewhere, in addition to my own take, I don't think Summit is restricted. Acting as though it is and/or not laying all the cards on the table just creates more "animosity" and leaves another anchor in the water. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by ThenNow

[MisterH]

Given what ThenNow and others have said about how many victims wrestle with the aftermath of their abuse for decades until finally talking about it, it's entirely likely that we'll never know how many children were abused in 2010-2020 until the 2030s, '40s, or even '50s. Given that long of a lag time, if I were BSA I would consider offering to have both national and the LC's to pay into a fund in perpetuity for victims of the recent past, present, and future as part of any settlement. It might show good faith about addressing the issue long term going forward, plus make it less likely for the other side to see full liquidation as the best option.

[ThenNow]

10 hours ago, MisterH said:

Given that long of a lag time, if I were BSA I would consider offering to have both national and the LC's to pay into a fund in perpetuity for victims of the recent past, present, and future as part of any settlement. It might show good faith about addressing the issue long term going forward, plus make it less likely for the other side to see full liquidation as the best option.

As with other mass tort bankruptcies, the case has a Future Tort Claimants representative and attorney (Future Claimants Committee or "FCC")  representing their interests. Though we don't know how the Trust will be funded, how any of the abuse claims (current/future) will be valued or the future claims administered, you are right on track with your thinking. There is such an avenue in place, to what exact end I don't know.

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by ThenNow

[David CO]

15 hours ago, MisterH said:

if I were BSA I would consider offering to have both national and the LC's to pay into a fund in perpetuity for victims of the recent past, present, and future as part of any settlement. 

To make that work, you would need to have a scouting public who is willing to pay in perpetuity.  I don't think the parents and donors are collectively willing to do that.  They'll quit.

 

[Owls_are_cool]

Nobody associated with my troop will want to pay a dime towards any settlement, because none of us participated in the abuse. We're here to invest in scouts today, not to bail out scouters who were not held accountable decades ago. Making scouts sell popcorn, etc for such bailouts to keep the program running is just wrong. 

[David CO]

16 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said:

Nobody associated with my troop will want to pay a dime towards any settlement, because none of us participated in the abuse. 

I think that is true of everybody.  Nobody wants to pay.  So the question isn't if they want to pay, but will they pay.  The only other choice is to quit.

 

[ThenNow]

20 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said:

Nobody associated with my troop will want to pay a dime towards any settlement, because none of us participated in the abuse. We're here to invest in scouts today, not to bail out scouters who were not held accountable decades ago. Making scouts sell popcorn, etc for such bailouts to keep the program running is just wrong. 

I don't want to misstate, but I think your response is based on one Scouter's opinion of how future claims should be compensated. I do understand your response to that idea. I'm not saying I don't. However, to my knowledge, this idea of "future" and ongoing "investments" as a means to pay future claims currently has no foundation in the case. 

[Eagle1993]

52 minutes ago, David CO said:

To make that work, you would need to have a scouting public who is willing to pay in perpetuity.  I don't think the parents and donors are collectively willing to do that.  They'll quit.

 

I would expect the TCC and the future claims rep are not willing to bet on future payments from BSA.  It seems like it would be best from all parties to arrive at a final number, write the check and move on.  

For future claims, my understanding is that there would be a bucket of money that would pay out for those claims not submitted by the bankruptcy filing deadline.  

I tend to agree with @David CO that parents and donors (and I expect COs) will want to have a hard line in the sand that future dues, fees, fundraising are all going 100% to the current youth activities and not past sins.  I believe the message being sent right now is that fees and donations are protected, but there is definitely doubt that BSA is able to shield current incoming revenue from the bankruptcy until the bankruptcy is concluded.

[Owls_are_cool]

25 minutes ago, David CO said:

So the question isn't if they want to pay, but will they pay.  The only other choice is to quit.

My opinion is that all the media ads (TV, Radio, Internet) looking for people abused by the BSA has impacted recruitment. My district cannot advertise in public schools anymore. Typical parent will not know that the registration fee is shielded from the settlement, though I am certain of indirect costs impacting the fee (such as higher cost of liability insurance). 

COVID-19 has caused a significant number of current scouts to quit.

Those of us on the front lines that remain have already taken on a higher financial and administrative workload to keep the program going. If things do not turn around in 1-2 years, there will be a mass exodus from the program.

[5thGenTexan]

1 hour ago, Owls_are_cool said:

My opinion is that all the media ads (TV, Radio, Internet) looking for people abused by the BSA has impacted recruitment. My district cannot advertise in public schools anymore. Typical parent will not know that the registration fee is shielded from the settlement, though I am certain of indirect costs impacting the fee (such as higher cost of liability insurance). 

COVID-19 has caused a significant number of current scouts to quit.

Those of us on the front lines that remain have already taken on a higher financial and administrative workload to keep the program going. If things do not turn around in 1-2 years, there will be a mass exodus from the program.

I am not a typical parent and I don't know the registration fee won't be shielded from the settlement.  In fact I am sure they will use whatever revenue stream they can.  

 

[fred8033]

19 hours ago, MisterH said:

... abused in 2010-2020 until the 2030s, '40s, or even '50s. Given that long of a lag time, if I were BSA I would consider offering to have both national and the LC's to pay into a fund in perpetuity for victims of the recent past, present, and future as part of any settlement. It might show good faith about addressing the issue long term going forward, plus make it less likely for the other side to see full liquidation as the best option.

 

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

...  future claims should be compensated. ...

It's a bankruptcy.  A demarcation line.  Liabilities before bankruptcy would be gone.  There would be no compensation for victims of 2010-2020 abuse.  For BSA to keep a fund, BSA would need to acknowledge a continued liability for debts previous to the bankruptcy.  If funds need to be reserved, it would need to come from the current pending settlement reducing payments for the currently listed victims.

 

 

[5thGenTexan]

Is the BSA Travel Agency the new way to pay the bills?

You and your family can stay at Philmont, Summit, or Sea Base.  Dont even have to be in Scouts.

Tents, bunkhouses, hotel style rooms.

https://www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/family-adventure-camp/