Bankruptcy Losses

[vol_scouter]

3 hours ago, yknot said:

Membership numbers as of March were down substantially according to the bankruptcy plan. I would guess some councils are using the bankruptcy to downsize. I just wish there was  some kind of long term planning being done on the part of some of these councils  to preserve the properties as parks/open space with continued public/scout access. It's painful to see these properties eyed for development like the one in Connecticut. 

The TCC has evaluated all council properties so that each council is expected to sell the property for that estimated price.   One way or the other, the councils wish to get as much as reasonably possible to pay as much of the contribution to pay the obligation for the chapter 11.  
 

Except for the attorneys, there are no winners in this process.

 

[yknot]

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Years ago I talked with our registrar when our council was looking to sell a piece of property.  I was sad.  Her comment is that if you look at the council over time, property has been bought or donated and sold.  Camps change hands.  ...  Then she started identifying the past camps our council had.  I never knew that our council had so many different camps over the last 90 years.  

That is sadly too common. People donate land to scouts thinking it will remain in use and then it's sold. Where I am there are multiple scouting properties that have been lost, most developed. Thankfully there are some that became part of a parks system or held by a land trust.  Schiff Reservation is one of them thankfully. It was appalling when BSA sold that. It's still nice to go there and see the old scout structures and think about old Mr. Hillcourt and what he represented in scouting. It was neighbors and a community that saved it. Hopefully some of these camp properties will be preserved. 

[yknot]

13 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The TCC has evaluated all council properties so that each council is expected to sell the property for that estimated price.   One way or the other, the councils wish to get as much as reasonably possible to pay as much of the contribution to pay the obligation for the chapter 11.  
 

Except for the attorneys, there are no winners in this process.

 

It's sad. I will say real estate evaluations for camp properties which are often unique are simply speculative until you have a buyer willing to part with money. 

[T2Eagle]

11 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

It is fascinating to me that these councils are selling camps prior to Judge Silverstein issuing her judgment in the BSA Chapter 11.  Our council will sell a camp to an identified purchaser only if the proposed settlement is actually confirmed but not before.  Perhaps the councils feel certain of the Judge's ruling or feel that they are better off with the liquidity no matter the outcome.  Just find it fascinating that they are selling now.

Councils in open states like California are going to pay, whether through BSA bankruptcy or through their own.  It's probably prudent to get that liquidity lined up.

[PACAN]

@ynot

Can you find the march membership numbers you referred to?

thanks.

[sst3rd]

It happened earlier this week. Our council sold its primitive camp for their contribution to the fund.

This was an established camp with many shops, other buildings, trails, and organized campsites. I was a member of the maintenance committee. Over many years, we built all of these facilities. Over 40 strong of mostly retired unit leaders that still wanted to contribute to scouting.

Over 500 acres of rolling hills and woods. Six ponds to fish out of, and frontage on a recreational lake. My troop had a favorite waterfront campsite where I could launch my boat right off the shore. All of the aquatic merit badges were taught there. This was a former farm that grew tobacco, then cows and horses. The family surprisingly donated this farm to our council after the last family member passed away a long time ago.

I'll have the memories of course, but this has affected many scouts, former scouts, leaders, and former leaders. This was a great camp at a perfect location. The fellowship was amazing. Helped me a lot during covid.

The council said that it was the only liquid asset it had to raise our contribution. We begged to differ. We even made a competitive bid, but the developer's was bigger. Bigger wins. It's over with of course. It's done. The council wanted our maintenance crew to go out and support the council's "real" camp. But it's located many miles to the west of us. For the record, they've never had a dedicated volunteer maintenance crew out there, but have three paid staff employees.  

We understand the council has to make the required payment. I, of course, recognize my council had abuse problems over the many years. It's serious and complicated.

As the former maintenance committee members go our separate ways, I am reminded of these words;

"softly falls the light of day, as our campfire fades away..................................................."

Take care,

 

sst3rd

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, sst3rd said:

It happened earlier this week. Our council sold its primitive camp for their contribution to the fund.

This was an established camp with many shops, other buildings, trails, and organized campsites. I was a member of the maintenance committee. Over many years, we built all of these facilities. Over 40 strong of mostly retired unit leaders that still wanted to contribute to scouting.

Over 500 acres of rolling hills and woods. Six ponds to fish out of, and frontage on a recreational lake. My troop had a favorite waterfront campsite where I could launch my boat right off the shore. All of the aquatic merit badges were taught there. This was a former farm that grew tobacco, then cows and horses. The family surprisingly donated this farm to our council after the last family member passed away a long time ago.

I'll have the memories of course, but this has affected many scouts, former scouts, leaders, and former leaders. This was a great camp at a perfect location. The fellowship was amazing. Helped me a lot during covid.

The council said that it was the only liquid asset it had to raise our contribution. We begged to differ. We even made a competitive bid, but the developer's was bigger. Bigger wins. It's over with of course. It's done. The council wanted our maintenance crew to go out and support the council's "real" camp. But it's located many miles to the west of us. For the record, they've never had a dedicated volunteer maintenance crew out there, but have three paid staff employees.  

We understand the council has to make the required payment. I, of course, recognize my council had abuse problems over the many years. It's serious and complicated.

As the former maintenance committee members go our separate ways, I am reminded of these words;

"softly falls the light of day, as our campfire fades away..................................................."

Take care,

 

sst3rd

 

What camp and council?

[SiouxRanger]

8 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

What camp and council?

Ask not for whom the bell tolls.

It tolls for thee.

We are all loyal passengers on a train ill-driven.

Edited May 21, 2022 by SiouxRanger
Tyrant auto correct error.

[InquisitiveScouter]

27 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Ask not for whom the bell tolls.

It tolls for thee.

We are all loyal passengers on a train ill-driven.

I have already attended that funeral twice...  Camp Linwood Hayne, Georgia-Carolina Council, and Treasure Island, Cradle of Liberty.

[SiouxRanger]

In high school, so many moons ago, like 56 years ago, a brilliant math teacher in presenting a proof on the chalk board, when it did not quite work out, would say:

"The best laid plans of mice and men oft times go astray."

I think National will likely taste the bitter edge of this aphorism.

The "pre-loaded" plan failed.

The vote failed (as most seem to think).

Many of the tangential big players have not gotten "on board" (Catholics, some insurance companies, Methodists (it appears, more or less), Mormons abandoned ship, parents and their kids seem to be looking for something a bit less involved than a lesson in complex bankruptcy for a youth activity...and, at least me, a volunteer of 28 years, at virtually all levels of the council from cub unit, troop unit, district, and council, am exhausted by it all.

I'll note one thing that frightens me regarding the future of Scouting:  I was a Cub, Arrow Of Light, Boy Scout, Eagle, local camp staff, Philmont Ranger Staff, father of 3 Eagles, held many Pack positions, Troop positions, District positions, Council Executive Board, District Award of Merit and Silver Beaver (and I am not in the race for Awards-for-adults; I wear only the Eagle knot that I earned).

Of the 6 or 8 active adults in may Troop, only ONE had prior Scouting experience, and he an Eagle.  All the rest are non-scouting experience adults.  They are determined and really capable, but the "Tradition" is being lost.

“May the Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts be with us until we meet again.”

No one in my Troop has ever heard this or have any sense of what it means. Nor experienced the solemnity which settles on one's soul when said at a dying campfire, everyone holding hands.

Scout Vespers. Lost.

"Leave a campsite in better condition than you found it."  NADA. "Say what?

Policing a campsite?  Never done.

These are aspects of simple rituals which are calming, settling. They provide a sense of continuity and of belonging. An established routine.

Scouts who do not advance as they might, STILL feel involved and have a sense of belonging to a group of their peers-they feel accepted.  Which I think is very important.

The Tradition seems to be slipping away.

Who are the adults who are inclined to lead Scouting into the future?

I think that there are few adults now involved who have any experience in Scouting.

[SiouxRanger]

I am just one simple player of tens of thousands headed to the sunset.

And in which hearts will Tradition lie?

And can "Tradition" go extinct when all the hearts which hold the Tradition die?

[InquisitiveScouter]

39 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

I am just one simple player of tens of thousands headed to the sunset.

And in which hearts will Tradition lie?

And can "Tradition" go extinct when all the hearts which hold the Tradition die?

There are many who still carry the flame...

But, yes, when all the hearts die, the tradition dies, too...unless it is written and recorded.  It can be then resurrected.

[sst3rd]

Albright Scout Reservation

 

Heart of Virginia

 

The new owner is not allowed to develop as of yet. He's a big contractor in this area. He plans to build his dream house and offer parcels to any family member who wants to build there. I know this, as a friend of mine attended a Silver Beaver Dinner over the weekend at our council camp, and he spoke with our CE after the dinner. There are so many negative things I could say. I am not happy. Everything was nontransparent, etc.......................................................

Hey, but life goes on. It is what it is.

sst3rd

[SiouxRanger]

On 5/21/2022 at 6:34 PM, SiouxRanger said:

In high school, so many moons ago, like 56 years ago, a brilliant math teacher in presenting a proof on the chalk board, when it did not quite work out, would say:

"The best laid plans of mice and men oft times go astray."

I think National will likely taste the bitter edge of this aphorism.

The "pre-loaded" plan failed.

The vote failed (as most seem to think).

Many of the tangential big players have not gotten "on board" (Catholics, some insurance companies, Methodists (it appears, more or less), Mormons abandoned ship, parents and their kids seem to be looking for something a bit less involved than a lesson in complex bankruptcy for a youth activity...and, at least me, a volunteer of 28 years, at virtually all levels of the council from cub unit, troop unit, district, and council, am exhausted by it all.

I'll note one thing that frightens me regarding the future of Scouting:  I was a Cub, Arrow Of Light, Boy Scout, Eagle, local camp staff, Philmont Ranger Staff, father of 3 Eagles, held many Pack positions, Troop positions, District positions, Council Executive Board, District Award of Merit and Silver Beaver (and I am not in the race for Awards-for-adults; I wear only the Eagle knot that I earned).

Of the 6 or 8 active adults in may Troop, only ONE had prior Scouting experience, and he an Eagle.  All the rest are non-scouting experience adults.  They are determined and really capable, but the "Tradition" is being lost.

“May the Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts be with us until we meet again.”

No one in my Troop has ever heard this or have any sense of what it means. Nor experienced the solemnity which settles on one's soul when said at a dying campfire, everyone holding hands.

Scout Vespers. Lost.

"Leave a campsite in better condition than you found it."  NADA. "Say what?

Policing a campsite?  Never done.

These are aspects of simple rituals which are calming, settling. They provide a sense of continuity and of belonging. An established routine.

Scouts who do not advance as they might, STILL feel involved and have a sense of belonging to a group of their peers-they feel accepted.  Which I think is very important.

The Tradition seems to be slipping away.

Who are the adults who are inclined to lead Scouting into the future?

I think that there are few adults now involved who have any experience in Scouting.

Scouterlockport (Illinois?) what is the basis of your downvote?

I can't learn from a mere downvote.

[Scouterlockport]

5 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Scouterlockport (Illinois?) what is the basis of your downvote?

I can't learn from a mere downvote.

We complain when national has no high level employees with non scouting experience. That there is no new ideas or better business practice being brought in. But we complain about lost of tradition when the adults dont have a scouting background. Maybe there new perspective is what is going to save scouting. Because I know just keeping to tradition is no gonna work because it hasn't for the last 20 years