Grooming = "psycho-babble"

[Eagledad]

41 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

The point of this exercise is to identify steps and identify the types of behavior associated therewith, so that predators can be identified prior to actual abuse.

Good luck. What everyone is basically saying is grooming is a process of Living the Scout Law. Are we going to turn Friendly, Courteous, and Kind into suspicious behavior now?

it would be easier to keep the adults 100 yards away from the Patrols.

Barry

 

[fred8033]

On 3/13/2021 at 3:25 PM, GiraffeCamp said:

A person's heinous acts does not mean they didn't also perform kindnesses. And a person performing kindnesses does not mean we can trust that person with opportunities to hurt and abuse ...  GREAT STATEMENT ... Absolutely true., ... especially the vulnerable, especially if the person has a history of such behavior. Kindnesses do not negate hideous abuse. 

We were discussing just yesterday the adults in our lives who took us under their wings as children and of how their innocent behaviors would never fly today. A neighbor of mine basically functioned like an aunt and I went on random shopping trips and such all the time.

The difficulty is in having the broadest healthy social circle while keeping it safe for all. Grooming absolutely happens. How do we on the outside tell the difference between that and healthy neighbors BEFORE abuse occurs so we can include one and protect from the other? I understand this thread to be navigating that tightrope, which is a healthy discussion. 

 

On 3/15/2021 at 1:44 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

... Unfortunately, the ones who are truly kind and genuinely care can get lumped in with the abusers as  "groomers."  I have seen this, and have had to defend several people's reputations. ...  The behavior of mis-identification is also greatly discouraging some adults from getting involved.   

Grooming occurs.  I fully believe that.  There are predators preparing victims.

I'm less comfortable with the statement trying to tell the difference between abusers and the healthy.  Or the "truly kind".  "I believe" (and I'm not an expert) that there is a justification process going on in the head of the abuser and an evolving process in the head of the abuser that helps the abuser live with their own evil acts.  ...  "I believe" the abuser must also go thru some type of natural evolution from helping and developing a connection with those they help to then change the relationship into an abuser / victim relationship. 

Though there are evil individuals that consciously hunt for victims, it must be more complex than that.  Borderline personalities.  Justification.  "Oh I'm really helping and that's why I'm here" and then "I can't believe I did that".

I just think it's unproductive to think of this simplisitically as an evil predator on the hunt.  I'm sure that happens, but I'm betting it's far more complex with many mixed situations.   We have the YPT rules not just because we can't identify abusers, but YPT rules exist to remove opportunity that attracts or creates abusers.   

ANALOGY:   Drugs.  Please forgive this analogy.  It may fall far short.  ... Addicts hunt, steal, commit crimes, etc to get their fix.  BUT, there are also those that may not be addicts but given the opportunity they may take the drugs or make mistakes.  Some might become addicts.  Others will take the drugs over a period of time.  Some may justify the drug as not bad or okay given all the good they do.  ... YPT is like the approach on drugs.  We try to remove the opportunity. 

I just think it's unhealthy to overly focus a discussion the "truly good" versus the abusers.  ... I just don't think it's that simple.  Grooming happens, but I'm not sure "intent" is that clean or if the abusers even knows in advance what their intent really is.

[MikeS72]

15 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

(Perhaps another element of YPT training-grooming techniques to be aware of-perhaps becoming alert to pre-abuse activities will prevent actual abuse.)

Examples of grooming behavior have been a part of YPT for at least the past 2 1/2 years or more.

[ThenNow]

12 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I just think it's unhealthy to overly focus a discussion the "truly good" versus the abusers.  ... I just don't think it's that simple.  Grooming happens, but I'm not sure "intent" is that clean or if the abusers even knows in advance what their intent really is.

As someone who now knows a bit about grooming, both experientially and clinically, this is very true. If “we” try to formulate any sort of litmus test for purity of intent, whether based on words, observed actions or personality quirks, we get into deep trouble. You protect the sheep by putting up fences, making better ones when they prove inadequate, walking among them frequently, discussing techniques with other ranchers who share your desire to protect and defend and you sending them out with a Great Pyrenees, Akbash or Anatolian Shepherd. Think mindful, trusted, educated, equipped and proven Scouters. In twos. (Maybe they even have a spy detection gadget!) 

For personal examples, there was my SM, ASM and the SE I’ve mentioned. Then, there was an older, beloved man who befriended me and, unfortunately knew nothing of what was going on. I won’t go into the whys, again. He was an OA leader from another LC and took us to the 1977 National Conference in Tennessee. I had another friend, an older Scout nearing Scouter status, who I now think had a sense that all was not well with me. He was a bit effeminate and kind of hovered around me, in a protective, older brotherly way. “Hm. What’s going on here?” He never asked me, just befriended. He was a solid Scout and Scouter who was emotionally aware and concerned. We played tennis together and other things. All was well. This delving into intent would be trixy and dangerous b’ness. 

Btw, I said “we” up there for a reason. I still wonder if there may be the prospect of me participating in Scouting going forward. Likely not on a local/Unit level. As some of you know, that was actually underway in late December 2019. It was a huge step for me after 40+ years of distance from Scouting. Then it completely plotzed two months later. I’m still not over that timing. Hard to believe. 

Sorry to horn in on this topic again, but I thought I might be able to add a beneficial perspective.

[Sentinel947]

22 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Good luck. What everyone is basically saying is grooming is a process of Living the Scout Law. Are we going to turn Friendly, Courteous, and Kind into suspicious behavior now?

it would be easier to keep the adults 100 yards away from the Patrols.

Barry

 

I've said this before, but it's relevant. That's what makes No One on One Contact so important. While adults can be friendly, courteous and kind with youth, there's no justifiable reason for an adult to be alone with a youth that isn't their child. 

I feel like I have strong relationships with my Scouts, that they know me and I get to know them, but these aren't secret or private interactions. They take place in view of/ including other adults/youth, whether in person or virtually. 

[ThenNow]

On 8/1/2021 at 12:57 PM, SiouxRanger said:

Maybe a new word is needed.

Very good point. Grooming is an effective term, if you know it’s clinical definition. Your invitation made me consult my love of language thinker. The result? “Houston, we have a problem.” A word that depicts something terrible, exploitative and insidious while describing good human hygiene in means one definition is seriously diluted. On reflection, I understand why grooming was chosen to describe the a component of sexual abuse, but you are probably right. Perhaps it needs to be reconsidered. A word from the animal kingdom reduces it to the proper base perspective and captures intent, forethought, methodical process, baiting, stalking lying in wait and execution: predation. If you’ve read my posts, I like to use this word because it truly encapsulates the concept and process. All predators engage in predation. Child sexual predators are just that and do just that.

Edited August 2, 2021 by ThenNow

[ThenNow]

Oops. Posted over and over. Apologies.

Edited August 2, 2021 by ThenNow
Oops. My machine is glitching. It wasn’t me...

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

I've said this before, but it's relevant. That's what makes No One on One Contact so important. While adults can be friendly, courteous and kind with youth, there's no justifiable reason for an adult to be alone with a youth that isn't their child. 

Correct, and that is where Youth Protection policies and procedures and training guide the adults. 

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

I feel like I have strong relationships with my Scouts, that they know me and I get to know them, but these aren't secret or private interactions. They take place in view of/ including other adults/youth, whether in person or virtually. 

You are certainly right. The adults can have a good mentoring relationship under the YPT guidelines. Many of my Eagle Conferences where in the middle of camping and venturing activities right in front of the whole groups. I did one while driving to Philmont. If you were to ask the scouts, they would probably say they weren't even sure it was a conference because we had so many casual conversations in the those settings.

I remember buying a ice-cream bar for a scout while doing his 2nd class SM Conference at summer camp. The review board told me later he didn't know that we were having a conference.

But, I feel like the YPT is appropriate for the intention of protecting the scouts, as well as the adults'. The adults just need to insure everyone is held accountable to following the guidelines. In life, most behavioral habits we grow to learn come from consistent expectations of the adults. I'm sure your troop worked this way. Most do. 

The reason many kids struggle today is that many of us are afraid to speak up when they see something that appears wrong. I found that adults and scouts are afraid to speak up when they see an action they want to question because they don't like confrontation. I taught on this very subject in training because I saw so much of it in both Packs and Troops. But it's  still hard when instincts push a person to stay away from trouble.

YPT is good enough to protect the scouts, but maybe both the scouts and adults need to be trained that reporting something suspicious is OK and expected. But, saying that, I know it's hard.

Barry

[DuctTape]

While I can appreciate the desire for a term better than grooming and understand the difficulty since the term has multiple meanings, I do not think predation while it captures the insidious nature it does not capture the trust element distinction. Grooming is predatory but what makes is distinctly different than just hunting, the purpose is for the abuser to gain the trust of its intened victim so as to exploit it. I am not sure a better word exists, nor do I think we should spend too much energy of finding one. Our energy should be spent on finding ways to eliminate the exploitation of children (and others).

[ThenNow]

39 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

I am not sure a better word exists, nor do I think we should spend too much energy of finding one. Our energy should be spent on finding ways to eliminate the exploitation of children (and others).

Agreed. I’m certainly not forming a committee to study the alternatives for the word grooming in this contex. I was partly being “smart” picking a language nit. I was also speaking to the issue of people not knowing the clinical definition and reality of sexual abuse grooming. We’re in a thread created because I was going on about grooming and the term was deemed “psycho-babble.” Maybe some need to call it something else to come along and get it. Dunno. Absolutely 100% there are better things do. I hope you believe it takes no selling to get me on board with the your last statement. 

[SiouxRanger]

5 hours ago, ThenNow said:

means one definition is seriously diluted

That's my unwritten thought. Thanks for giving it expression.  "Grooming" just sounds too benign. 

[SiouxRanger]

On 8/1/2021 at 1:03 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

It's more like luring or baiting a trap.

I have not "settled" on a suggestion, but grooming can be done by both adult and apparently older youth, it is targeted, and with evil outcome for the target. And so perhaps a single word won't embody all the aspects of the activity..   "Predatory grooming" is my near term recommendation, but I reserve the right to change my my mind and modify this.

"Acclimatization" and "habituation" are words from the world of psychology which tend to fit the grooming activity, but too wordy, opaque, and foreign to most folks.

A word or phrase is needed that embodies the notions of predatory, targeted victim, relentlessness of pursuit, opportunistic, sexual abuse, vulnerability, among them. Not an easy task. But a noble goal.

[SiouxRanger]

"Acculturation" is another word too big in my estimation.  "Assimiliation" is too strong-this denote permanent change. (Sexual predation is a single event, or a series of events which the predator does not see as permanent and the target as "subjected to."

Nevertheless, "grooming" is far too benign to describe the nature of a sexual predator's activity directed at a target.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I (perhaps) remember Scout handbooks speaking of scouts engaging in "proper hygiene and grooming." Or those words, thereabouts. But in a positive posture..

WORDS COUNT, and I think it important to adopt terms that adequately describe the aspects of the predator-victim situation (crime scene).

[SiouxRanger]

And, whether this is the proper thread, or not, moderators can determine and move, the number of registered and active posters on this forum, is miniscule compared to the number of claimants, and even micro miniscule compared to the number of registered adult scouters.

My primary focuses are 1.  What can I learn to be reasonably informed;  2. What can I do to educate (trying to give others the benefit of what I have seen and learned), and, 3. What do I do next to make change (NOW-why wait)?

So, there are very few active registered members on this forum, and about 150 guests on this forum, and those numbers pale before the number of registered adult volunteers in Scouting who are largely NOT on this forum. (Just guessing, the forum's registered members and viewing guests are less than one thousandth of a percent of registered adult scouters.)

And so the message of all this trauma and horror is not getting out to virtually all of the registered adult leaders.  And if they don't learn here, given the few citations to public media about all of this, they know nothing.