YP and other stuff spun from Ch 11

[ThenNow]

 

15 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Can we return to the topic at hand, Chapter 11? Thanks,

@MattR  @John-in-KC

RS

Maybe this also belongs in the discussion of the YPT? It is relevant if some Scouters don't believe grooming exists, which is a big component of protecting kids from abuse of many kinds. I'll leave it alone, in any case and stay here. Thanks for the bodycheck. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by ThenNow

[MattR]

This was pulled off from the Ch 11 thread. However, it seems to be going towards the rails. And to be honest, for once I understand why.

Human dignity is the cornerstone of my definition of right and wrong. I'll leave it at that.

[David CO]

22 minutes ago, MattR said:

However, it seems to be going towards the rails.

I think it is already off the rails.  It might have been better if you just deleted it.

[MattR]

23 minutes ago, David CO said:

I think it is already off the rails.  It might have been better if you just deleted it.

I would have thought about it, except @ThenNow said it was addressing an important concern. Namely whether everyone in general and you in particular understand the process by which many youth get sucked into a soul crushing situation they don't know how to get out of. Given that he has been there before and that you care deeply for your students it might be good to let this continue. I was hoping we can get past the simple insults like "psycho babble" (or whatever it was) and into something with a bit more experience. In the old map maker's lingo: There Be Dragons - and just possibly a deeper understanding as well. But, you're free to not participate.

[CynicalScouter]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

I think it is already off the rails.

It "went off the rails" when you decided to declare "grooming" of children for sexual assault was "psycho-babble", as you did here.

It "went off the rails" when you decided to compare or equate the sexual assault of children to premarital sex, as you did here.

It "went off the rails" when you decided that somehow your religion (you called it "my own religion" here meaning Roman Catholicism) was somehow opposed to or in opposition to the idea that "grooming" of children was a real thing, as you did here, even after it was noted that the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops themselves acknowledged "grooming" was real, not "psycho-babble".

I've seen you around here long enough to know that when confronted, you will simply not respond and instead stop posting for a few days/weeks and then come back, so I'm not really expecting you to explain this. Suffice to say that your absolute dismissive attitude and denigration that grooming is "psycho-babble" is nauseating.

Edited March 11, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ThenNow]

11 hours ago, MattR said:

Namely whether everyone in general and you in particular understand the process by which many youth get sucked into a soul crushing situation they don't know how to get out of.

By way of reassurance, would someone please confirm that this avoid, deflect and deny position on grooming is extremely limited among volunteer and professional Scouters? Thank you.

[swilliams]

4 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

By way of reassurance, would someone please confirm that this avoid, deflect and deny position on grooming is extremely limited among volunteer and professional Scouters? Thank you.

I can only speak for myself, and tell you about the YPT that is given (if you haven't taken it yourself).

YPT teaches about more than just abuse, but I'll tell you that on the specific topic of grooming, it's covered and explained pretty well.  It's been a year since I took it, but I definitely recall the program using an example of the abuser getting to know the family to build trust, then offering tickets to a baseball game, starting with small, innocuous gestures like putting a hand on the scout's shoulder, then building from that.  It's so gradual, that the scout is trusting of the abuser by then, and if the person is someone your parents accept, that YOU accept, that's where much of the power comes from.  It makes it confusing for the scout, and adds the idea that other adults won't believe any accusations, plus the scout has come to like the person.  Very complex, and why the first rule of YPT is to never allow one-on-one in scouting.

I can also tell you that our Troop takes YPT very seriously, and doesn't short-cut.  To the point that it's made things difficult, particularly when scouts working on their Eagle project are having a hard time getting two registered adults for their work days.  We now ask that both parents of a scout working toward Eagle register with the Troop.  The Troop will help pick up the cost of the registration, if needed.

[ThenNow]

2 minutes ago, swilliams said:

(if you haven't taken it yourself).

To confirm, I have. 

[qwazse]

@CynicalScouter, either counter the arguments or simply downvote them.

@ThenNow, consider that very few scouters bother to correspond here at all, and make your inference accordingly.

From where I sit, I see that most scouters, be they rich or poor, just what some boys to hike and camp safely. The ones who see the increasing demands on their time and money to be a drain on their ability to do that will leave BSA and will continue the to provide for the youth around them without the hassle or training, registration fees, or any contribution to any victims' fund.

Edited March 11, 2021 by qwazse

[ThenNow]

10 minutes ago, swilliams said:

I'll tell you that on the specific topic of grooming, it's covered and explained pretty well.  It's been a year since I took it, but I definitely recall the program using an example of the abuser getting to know the family to build trust, then offering tickets to a baseball game, starting with small, innocuous gestures like putting a hand on the scout's shoulder, then building from that.  It's so gradual, that the scout is trusting of the abuser by then, and if the person is someone your parents accept, that YOU accept, that's where much of the power comes from.  It makes it confusing for the scout, and adds the idea that other adults won't believe any accusations, plus the scout has come to like the person.  Very complex, and why the first rule of YPT is to never allow one-on-one in scouting.

This relates back to something I raised a while back, regarding the involvement of psychologists and law enforcement in creating YPT. Do you think there would be value for volunteers - not so much parents - to hear from survivors on these issues? I am always looking for ways to "redeem the evil" that has come into my life, one of which is the proverbial, "Now, turn and strengthen your brothers." I'm not a big fan of the old yarn about, "something good will always come out of something terrible," but I try to find morsels where I can.

[David CO]

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Do you think there would be value for volunteers - not so much parents - to hear from survivors on these issues?

It depends on the speaker.  Public speaking is tough.  It's a lot like running for office.  Some people will cheer.  Some will boo.  A public speaker has to be prepared for every kind of response.

I once saw a speaker from AA get ripped to shreds.  He was totally unprepared for the audience reaction.  He thought it would be like a large AA meeting, with everyone being caring and supportive.  He was wrong.

Some people can pull it off, but it takes pretty thick skin.

[CynicalScouter]

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

@CynicalScouter, either counter the arguments or simply downvote them.

I have been asked not to post any longer on this subject.

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ThenNow]

10 minutes ago, David CO said:

it takes pretty thick skin.

Thanks for the info.

My family and closest friends call me Rhino. (Not RINO, btw.) I am an accomplished public speaker, though that's somewhat irrelevant to the overall question of whether this would add value.

Edited March 11, 2021 by ThenNow

[ThenNow]

2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I have been asked not to post any longer on this subject.

Please come out of the penalty box. [Ping] Penalty Time served. I have waved you out. Skate on, brawler...

[David CO]

13 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Thanks for the info.

My family and closest friends call me Rhino. (Not RINO, btw.) I am an accomplished public speaker, though that's somewhat irrelevant to the overall question of whether this would add value.

Since I have yet to see any BSA training session that had any value, I would have to say no.  But who knows, you might be the first.