YP and other stuff spun from Ch 11

[ThenNow]

26 minutes ago, skeptic said:

"The cool kids don't join scouting."

If you're referencing my comment, I didn't say that. 1972 fellas. ThenNow. I know the former, and its wreckage (and good parts). You know the latter like I never will. That's the entire point of the moniker. 

[ThenNow]

35 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

That you dismiss this as "psycho-babble" is sick.

As I said before, previously, back when and also about other topics [insert greatly pained look], again I say, "What he said." Thanks for sparing me the need to comment on any of this. Seriously. "Good grief, Charlie Brown!" Oops. I did it again, one more time...

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, MYCVAStory said:

Speak with victims and you will find that the established grooming behaviors are real.  In fact, victims realizing that the way they were unknowingly "groomed" was not unique to them and not their fault can be a very important step in dealing with the trauma they have suffered.

When I referred to the eery feeling that the sexual predators in Scouting must've had a manual, this is what I meant. It may be metaphoric, but I wouldn't be surprised if they conspired and shared stories. The pattern of behavior, techniques, methodology, timing, language and "tools of the trade" are frighteningly familiar. I've read many, many retellings by former Scouts who were abused and it's chilling. I'm 100% serious. Believe me or don't. It matters not to me. This, my friends, is "grooming." Call it grooming, call it setting the trap, call it emotional and situational manipulation, call it luring, wooing, courting...whatever. The word has been universally accepted as describing this behavior by sexual predators. Oh. Drat. I stand corrected. Carve out a few teeny tiny itsy bitsy satellite exceptions within the vast expanse. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by ThenNow
Typo

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

Psycho-babble.

So I don't completely write this off, define your terms, please. If all psychological terminology - depression, PTSD, attachment disorder, mania/bi-polar disorder - amount to your term, I have a bucket into which I will place all of these comments. Maybe two buckets; one inside the other to keep it well contained.

[swilliams]

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

I'd ask if you are kidding but I've been around long enough to know: you aren't.

Grooming isn't "psycho-babble". It is a term that refers to a specific set of actions that are the prelude to most child sexual abuse cases.

That you dismiss this as "psycho-babble" is sick.

It's also very troubling that someone who is involved in scouting refuses to acknowledge the way in which many abusers form the kind of relationships that allow them to get close enough to begin the abuse.  A child is made to feel like they encouraged the behavior, leading to the belief it's their fault, and that no one can or will help them.

Edited to add: the concept of grooming is part of YPT.  If you (general you, not quoted 'you') are a leader, you took that training.  Why would you blow it off?

Edited March 10, 2021 by swilliams

[ThenNow]

1 minute ago, swilliams said:

It's also very troubling that someone who is involved in scouting refuses to acknowledge the way in which many abusers form the kind of relationships that allow them to get close enough to begin the abuse.  A child is made to feel like they encouraged the behavior, leading to the belief it's their fault, and that no one can or will help them.

Precisely my reason for saying I think it would be good for all adults to know, especially those who work with youth. It's critical to being both proactive and defensive/protective of those in one's charge from potential abuse.

[Oldscout448]

14 hours ago, David CO said:

Yes we are.  I firmly believe that without the lawsuits, or at least the threat of lawsuits, the executives would not have taken any action to end the child sexual abuse in BSA.  They only care about money.  

All current scouts benefit from these lawsuits.  The lawsuits make them safer.  Future generations of scouts will be safer because of these lawsuits.

 

Safer?   Yeah I guess so.  Since it looks like the majority of camps will cease to exist,  troops will fold left and right,so the ex-scouts can safely stay in their basement playing WoW.  

Honest question, do you really think there will be 'future generations of scouts'?

[CynicalScouter]

22 minutes ago, swilliams said:

It's also very troubling that someone who is involved in scouting refuses to acknowledge the way in which many abusers form the kind of relationships that allow them to get close enough to begin the abuse.

Grooming isn't "psycho-babble" but the fact that people like @David COthink it is may help explain (a little) why child sexual abuse it still happening.

It comes from the mindset that child sexual abuse only happens with bad people kidnapping kids in vans with puppies and/or use of force.

That type abuse-by-force is the exception.

Edited March 10, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[David CO]

49 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Um, you're a teacher. 

Yep.  I'm a Health teacher.  Have been for 40 years now.  Sometimes I teach Science.

Along with a very good speaker from the local women's shelter,  I teach the "Erin's Law" class on sexual abuse prevention.  We have some lively discussions, and the kids are remarkably frank.  

One thing I am sure of.  There is no universally agreed upon view on any of these issues, especially from the kids.  Their opinions are all over the place.

[ThenNow]

4 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

do you really think there will be 'future generations of scouts'?

I also wonder if it depends on the resources and current strength of those LC's (few?) that can fairly easily give some millions and still pivot on the strength of community support, leadership and donor base depth and breadth.

[David CO]

6 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Honest question, do you really think there will be 'future generations of scouts'?

Yes I do.  I am very optimistic on the future of scouting.  Not so much on the future of BSA.

[ThenNow]

4 minutes ago, David CO said:

One thing I am sure of.  There is no universally agreed upon view on any of these issues, especially from the kids.  Their opinions are all over the place.

That solves everything. The children are providing the frame of reference and setting the terms of discussion. Roger that. 

"NO universally agree upon view" and "any of these issues." Is that your final answer? Moving on to the next contestant. I need the DavidCO dictionary to keep up.

Edited March 10, 2021 by ThenNow
Almost said, "the children are running the asylum..."

[CynicalScouter]

5 minutes ago, David CO said:

There is no universally agreed upon view on any of these issues, especially from the kids.  Their opinions are all over the place.

Here's "universally" agreed upon, except perhaps by you.

1) Grooming isn't "psycho-babble". It is real and it happens.

2) Dismissing "grooming" as "psycho-babble" is a sure fire way to ensure child sexual abuse continues.

[David CO]

8 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

That solves everything. The children are providing the frame of reference and setting the terms of discussion. Roger that. 

No.  The kids don't set the terms of discussion, the adults do.  No profanity.  No slang.  No insults.  I'm one of those old-fashioned teachers who still likes to have open and honest discussions with the students.  No cancel culture.

[ThenNow]

13 minutes ago, David CO said:

No.  The kids don't set the terms of discussion, the adults do.  No profanity.  No slang.  No insults.  I'm one of those old-fashioned teachers who still likes to have open and honest discussions with the students.  No cancel culture.

Do you believe there are any "universally agreed upon views" in science or other subjects you teach? If so, may I know a couple? I assume you do not believe the field of psychology falls within the sciences. Correct? Finally, do you have any background or education in neuroscience? I hesitate to conclude that you are informed by ignorance, but I'm getting painted into that corner. I'm struggling to find a reasonable thread to hold with you. As someone who experienced years of "grooming," as defined, and years of study in psychology and sociology examining the "ways" of people and culture, I'm at a loss. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by ThenNow