YP and other stuff spun from Ch 11

[ThenNow]

5 hours ago, David CO said:

I firmly believe that without the lawsuits, or at least the threat of lawsuits, the executives would not have taken any action to end the child sexual abuse in BSA.  They only care about money.

All current scouts benefit from these lawsuits.  The lawsuits make them safer.  Future generations of scouts will be safer because of these lawsuits.

I agree. I don't like the reality of it, but I agree.

It may not seem like it, but I understand the mournful sentiment raised by several, recently with punch by OldScout448. Whatever cash goes out has the potential to negatively impact the life and Scouting experience of current and future Scouts who, through no fault of their own, are in Scouting during this tumult. On the same note, those of us who were abused happened to be in Scouting at a time when the house was not in order and we suffered the consequences. In both cases it stinks and innocent Scouts suffer. I hope people involved in this and in the general public clearly see who the victims are, yet again - kids. Just innocent kids. 

This goes to none of the topics and adds nothing to the discussion, but I'll say it anyway. I've done plenty of pointless blathering, so why stop now. Reading your posts and hearing the wanderings from the intensity of the moment into small Scouting quips, jokes about dodgeball, tales of memorable campouts, making do when more wasn't an option and being the better for it, HA trips or HA longings, how much you value your Scouts, upcoming Eagles and how passionate you are to sustain the experience, makes me both happy and sad. Sad in the better sort of way. I regret I didn't have an unblemished Scouting life as some did, but cherish the good parts. I keep a couple trinkets in my office to this day. I wish our boys had been able to be in Scouts, but I couldn't handle it at the time. That is a major life regret. I imagine being active now, but that has many complications and pointy edges. Oh, well. 

Anyway, I appreciate being on the forum. I appreciate you putting up the lane bumpers when my understanding is lacking and the ball careens over the gutter, pushing back when needed, voicing support for the survivors when you do, calling the BSA to account and generally being so involved in the lives of young people. You seem to most sincerely want the best for them and demonstrate it by giving your best to them. It's a very rich and deeply meaningful quest. It encourages my soul. This situation at hand is not wonderful or encouraging in any direction, but continue to strive for, protect and cherish the good parts.

Edited March 10, 2021 by ThenNow

[vol_scouter]

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Cynicical versus positive.  "They only care about money." ... I really disagree with that.  No one starts a professional scouting career to become rich.  Yeah, you can argue whether executives are paid too much, but running a million member organization takes a large infrastructure.   The same complain about BSA execs can be made about almost every school principal and superintendants.  They are paid too much.  They should be volunteering more to educate our children.  

"benefit from these lawsuits" ... Scouts are benefiting from the drastic learning that happened in the 1980s/1990s and matured around the year 2000.  Much came from lawsuits against day cares, churches, scouting, etc.  Much came from opening up medical understanding of the abusers.  Nothing new will be proven or learned by this lawsuit.  No one will be made whole or even close to whole.  We are digging up mostly old cases before a modern understanding of the crime and before current youth protection.  This is just digging up old dirt ... only benefiting lawyers.

I feel strongly because the worse is happening.  Fewer youth will be in scouting because of this lawsuit.  In no way is the average youth better by not being in scouting. 

fred8033, Thank you for this post.  You did a better job expressing my sentiments than I would have been able to do.  Please keep posting.

Over the past decade, I have personally known all of the upper leaders of the BSA and they all believed that a single youth abused was far too many because it is an evil act.  When comparisons are made with other non-profit leadership of similar sizes, the BSA often pays less than those other large non-profits.  The CSE has a number listed that includes things other than salary such as entertaining and travel so that they get paid far less than what is stated in public.

The National K3, National Executive Committee, and the National Executive Board set the overall policies, programs, approve salary structure, etc.  With the exception of the CEO, all are volunteers.  The most influential volunteers were Scouts and are or were unit level volunteers.  These people are concerned about the youth.

[David CO]

8 hours ago, fred8033 said:

In no way is the average youth better by not being in scouting. 

The average kid thinks so.  Scouting has never been a very popular program, and it has steadily declined over the past 40 years.  Yes, scouting has some very enthusiastic participants, but they are few in number.  The average youth has little interest in scouting.

[ThenNow]

12 minutes ago, David CO said:

The average kid thinks so.  Scouting has never been a very popular program, and it has steadily declined over the past 40 years.  Yes, scouting has some very enthusiastic participants, but they are few in number.  The average youth has little interest in scouting.

I have no idea about today, but in my day most cool, rich kids weren't in Scouting. Several from my school joined and all but 2 quit within a year or two. We had no money (I started working when I was 10 and buying my own clothes at 12) and couldn't afford golf, skiing, expensive field trips, Babe Ruth (fees) or activity that wasn't super cheap. My parents grumbled about Scouting fees, though I paid them.

Edited March 10, 2021 by ThenNow

[David CO]

33 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I have no idea about today, but in my day most cool, rich kids weren't in Scouting. Several from my school joined and all but 2 quit within a year or two. 

It's still that way.  The cool kids don't join scouting.  They have better things to do.  Out of 170 students, I may have one or two scouts.  Not very many.  

[Eagledad]

11 minutes ago, David CO said:

It's still that way.  The cool kids don't join scouting.  They have better things to do.  Out of 170 students, I may have one or two scouts.  Not very many.  

Interesting. When we were about 80 scouts strong in a district of 12 troops, the majority of the scouts attended a large (3000 students) upper middleclass Highschool. Toward the end of each school year, all the students voted for the top 7 leaders of the school. I don't remember why 7 was the magic number, but one year 6 of the 7 were scouts active in my troop. And the 7th was a girl. I'm sure she would have been in our troop today.

I have no guess to how that happened.

Barry

[David CO]

59 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

My parents grumbled about Scouting fees, though I paid them.

That surprises me.  I was guessing that your parents were pushing you into scouting.  I assumed you were trapped and couldn't get out.  If your parents grumbled about fees, you had the perfect excuse to get out.  

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

It's still that way.  The cool kids don't join scouting.  They have better things to do.  Out of 170 students, I may have one or two scouts.  Not very many.  

We're conflating different issues here.

- Scouting is a good program that many kids benefit from - regardless of "cool" status

- Scouting can certainly do a better job of marketing to youth.  That doesn't make Scouting bad - it's just the reality.

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

That surprises me.  I was guessing that your parents were pushing you into scouting.  I assumed you were trapped and couldn't get out.  If your parents grumbled about fees, you had the perfect excuse to get out.  

Why did you assume that? Seems like an odd assumption. I'm thinking you don't grasp the concept and reality of grooming, the mental and psychological state of a 10 year old boy, the "power" of a pederast in creating and nurturing a hyper-attachment, the confusion a boy goes through as result of male/male sexual abuse or the conflict inherent in concurrently admiring someone while being abused by them. 

I was very achievement oriented and that was a motivator. As I said, I only thought of telling my dad once, but never considered quitting. Eagle was the goal and I wanted it. My dad never attended any of my sporting events, concerts or the like, though there were very many. He did attend my Court of Honor, which was a big deal to me. He did not like my SM, but I was very independent and focused in all respects. Also, as with many predators, my SM recognized my "father hunger" immediately. As in, we're talking about my first Troop meeting. He complimented me, said he heard "great things about me" and would "make an exception to allow me into the Troop early, since you're just 10." It started from the first words out of his mouth."

Edited March 10, 2021 by ThenNow

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

I have no guess to how that happened.

Not uncommon in my town. What time period are you talking about?

[David CO]

30 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Why did you assume that?

So many scouts are pushed into it by their parents.  

[David CO]

32 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I'm thinking you don't grasp the concept and reality of grooming, the mental and psychological state of a 10 year old boy, the "power" of a pederast in creating and nurturing a hyper-attachment, the confusion a boy goes through as result of male/male sexual abuse or the conflict inherent in concurrently admiring someone while being abused by them. 

No.  I don't understand that at all.

[ThenNow]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

No.  I don't understand that at all.

Is it of any interest or simply irrelevant to for you in this context? It's fine if not. I think it's critical for any adult to know, at least the basics, especially anyone working with young people. I'm pretty sure I would feel this way regardless my abuse. Knowing and understanding all of this doesn't go to the issue of what Scouting needs to survive, or what survivors receive. Granted. It does go to why someone would persevere in Scouting in the midst of repeated, long-term abuse, not tell an adult and fail to fight back or flee. Most of us froze, as I did. Extremely common with children who are abused. Anyway, my opinion.

[Eagledad]

50 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Not uncommon in my town. What time period are you talking about?

2000

[ThenNow]

19 minutes ago, David CO said:

So many scouts are pushed into it by their parents.  

As with my other answers and the note about "cool, rich kids," that was not my experience at all. I was in Scouting before what feels like the "Eagle Mill era (term from a Scouter I knew, not me), college resume building that starts at pre-school and the degree of public praise and recognition that can come from achieving Eagle.