YP/Program Quality

[yknot]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

I applaud your fast-and-loose interpretation of YPT:

If the scout calls his buddy without two registered adults online, it is no longer a Scouting activity. If a hike does not include two registered adults, it is, by definition, no longer a Scouting activity. If they conspire with the rest of their patrol to go fishing early in the morning on opening day without two registered adults, it is no longer a Scouting activity.

You mention work that would count toward advancement. If a scout does it in the presence of 0, 1, or 50 registered adults, it still counts toward advancement -- except when it explicitly must be "under the auspices of BSA" ... as opposed to that night before opening day when his buddies camped independently by that sweet bend in the stream. But that is my point precisely, the majority of scouts worldwide aren't interested in doing stuff for advancement. They are interested in fulfilling the vision of the pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with your mates. Simply put, by YPT standards, the majority of youth scouting is no longer a Scouting activity. Therefore, American youth must leave Scouting to actually scout, and they do ... in droves.

In a sense, BSA over-sells Eagle and chaperoned HA bases: because it can no longer sell the vision of the pinnacle scouting experience.

That (and also that Eagle was not explicitly a youth award) is why BSA amassed membership through the 1960's. That is also why predators began to target such organizations ... it was almost easier than getting a teacher's degree or grooming one's young family member.

So you are saying that once a kid joins scouts, he can no longer call up a scout friend and say 'let's go on a hike' unless two leaders accompany them? This is news to me, but if so, then yes I would say adult supervision is overdone, because a basketball team member can definitely call up a teammate and say 'let's go shoot some hoops' without having coaching staff accompany them. However, I don't think that's the case. 

If you are saying having adults involved is a demotivator for kids, that is also wrong, because plenty of kid activities have some degree of adult supervision. I am also not aware that kids are leaving scouts in droves to do scouting elsewhere. Where? Has Trail Life suddenly gained 400,000 kids?  The time period of growth for scouts -- the 1960s -- was due to many factors including demographics and a lack of other opportunities. To try to pin the failure of scouting solely on the addition of  YP measures is silly. Predators didn't suddenly discover BSA in the 1960s. If you review the history of predation in scouting, you will find documentation that it began almost immediately after its establishment in the very early part of the 20th century. 

I don't know where these arguments are going or why they persist but it seems like insisting that YP ruined scouting ignores all the other problems with it. Does anyone really believe scouting would have survived to the 2020's if it had ignored YP in the 1990s or taken it less seriously?  

 

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 hours ago, yknot said:

So you are saying that once a kid joins scouts, he can no longer call up a scout friend and say 'let's go on a hike' unless two leaders accompany them?

That is correct, technically, if they want to do the activity to count for anything in Scouts.

I think what @qwazse was saying is that, youth are leaving Scouting to go do activities which we would call scouting.

For example, I know many older teenagers and young adults 16-21 (who are Scouts) around here who go rock climbing without adults.  They tell me it is "too much hassle."  I won't let my Scout go with them, but he has asked.

When he turns 18, he'll prob go without asking

Same for backpacking...my dear daughter, same age group, goes backpacking with her friends and college buddies.  They don't want older adults around.  I am pleased that she is often ribbed for being the only one who brought the first aid kit, map, compass...etc.  She is, after all, an Eagle Scout!!

Here's another one...although not specifically stated in the G2SS...in the BSA FAQ you will find:

Q. Does this mean my son cannot have a sleepover if I am the only adult present?

A. Yes, if any of the children other than your own child is a Scout, we strongly encourage all adults to use the Barriers to Abuse in and out of Scouting.  

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/yp-faqs/

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Horse hockey...if my son wants to camp in the backyard with his buddy, who happens to be a Scout, and his parents are OK with it, it's just fine with me.  This one is beyond the pale.

BTW, if they say "Yes" and then say "strongly encourage", isn't that mixing the message.  Also, why should it only apply if the other kid is a Scout? SMH

 

[yknot]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

That is correct, technically, if they want to do the activity to count for anything in Scouts.

I think what @qwazse was saying is that, youth are leaving Scouting to go do activities which we would call scouting.

For example, I know many older teenagers and young adults 16-21 (who are Scouts) around here who go rock climbing without adults.  They tell me it is "too much hassle."  I won't let my Scout go with them, but he has asked.

When he turns 18, he'll prob go without asking

Same for backpacking...my dear daughter, same age group, goes backpacking with her friends and college buddies.  They don't want older adults around.  I am pleased that she is often ribbed for being the only one who brought the first aid kit, map, compass...etc.  She is, after all, an Eagle Scout!!

Here's another one...although not specifically stated in the G2SS...in the BSA FAQ you will find:

Q. Does this mean my son cannot have a sleepover if I am the only adult present?

A. Yes, if any of the children other than your own child is a Scout, we strongly encourage all adults to use the Barriers to Abuse in and out of Scouting.  

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/yp-faqs/

-----------------

Horse hockey...if my son wants to camp in the backyard with his buddy, who happens to be a Scout, and his parents are OK with it, it's just fine with me.  This one is beyond the pale.

BTW, if they say "Yes" and then say "strongly encourage", isn't that mixing the message.  Also, why should it only apply if the other kid is a Scout? SMH

 

Is that for real, lol? Is there an actual reference for that in YP or G2SS? I know I am not supposed to be the lone adult with any youth as you note but I have never heard that kids can't ever do anything together with a friend in a non patrol group to work on requirements and have it count. Scouts in our units do it all the time. 

For example, the Cycling MB clearly states use the BSA buddy system and it's not unusual for older scouts to meet up for a ride and work on this. Friends working on Personal Fitness at the same time will meet up for runs without towing two adults in their wake. Same with Sports MB., etc. etc.  

 

 

 

 

[yknot]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

That is correct, technically, if they want to do the activity to count for anything in Scouts.

I think what @qwazse was saying is that, youth are leaving Scouting to go do activities which we would call scouting.

For example, I know many older teenagers and young adults 16-21 (who are Scouts) around here who go rock climbing without adults.  They tell me it is "too much hassle."  I won't let my Scout go with them, but he has asked.

When he turns 18, he'll prob go without asking

Same for backpacking...my dear daughter, same age group, goes backpacking with her friends and college buddies.  They don't want older adults around.  I am pleased that she is often ribbed for being the only one who brought the first aid kit, map, compass...etc.  She is, after all, an Eagle Scout!!

Here's another one...although not specifically stated in the G2SS...in the BSA FAQ you will find:

Q. Does this mean my son cannot have a sleepover if I am the only adult present?

A. Yes, if any of the children other than your own child is a Scout, we strongly encourage all adults to use the Barriers to Abuse in and out of Scouting.  

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/yp-faqs/

-----------------

Horse hockey...if my son wants to camp in the backyard with his buddy, who happens to be a Scout, and his parents are OK with it, it's just fine with me.  This one is beyond the pale.

BTW, if they say "Yes" and then say "strongly encourage", isn't that mixing the message.  Also, why should it only apply if the other kid is a Scout? SMH

 

Also, just to answer the second part. I know scouts leave scouting because it's more fun to do things without it but it's not just having two adults along that makes it a drag. Many components of the program, from the uniforms that a lot of kids don't like to the homework like aspects of many of the rank requirements and badges to the long boring meetings and ceremonies also contribute to that. It's not just because of YP. That's my point. I understand it's part of it, but it's not the only reason why scouts is losing kids. and if we continue to get stuck on that like a canoe on a dry river bed, we're never going to get anywhere.  

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

16 minutes ago, yknot said:

Is that for real, lol? Is there an actual reference for that in YP or G2SS? I know I am not supposed to be the lone adult with any youth as you note but I have never heard that kids can't ever do anything together with a friend in a non patrol group to work on requirements and have it count. Scouts in our units do it all the time. 

For example, the Cycling MB clearly states use the BSA buddy system and it's not unusual for older scouts to meet up for a ride and work on this. Friends working on Personal Fitness at the same time will meet up for runs without towing two adults in their wake. Same with Sports MB., etc. etc.  

 

 

 

 

Yes, for realz...

G2SS specifically now states "Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. "

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/

Scouts are not to do any activities without adult supervision.  This has been written for some time now...

Not just for overnighters...

Edited March 10, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter

[InquisitiveScouter]

8 minutes ago, yknot said:

Also, just to answer the second part. I know scouts leave scouting because it's more fun to do things without it but it's not just having two adults along that makes it a drag. Many components of the program, from the uniforms that a lot of kids don't like to the homework like aspects of many of the rank requirements and badges to the long boring meetings and ceremonies also contribute to that. It's not just because of YP. That's my point. I understand it's part of it, but it's not the only reason why scouts is losing kids. and if we continue to get stuck on that like a canoe on a dry river bed, we're never going to get anywhere.  

 

Didn't say it was the only reason, just one of them...

[fred8033]

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Yes, for realz...

G2SS specifically now states "Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. "

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/

Scouts are not to do any activities without adult supervision.  This has been written for some time now...

Yeah ... but you can take them to a 3000 acre summer camp and let them disappear for large blocks of time, hiking as far and long as they want, etc ... all without an adult within site of them. 

The rules are not always 100% clear.  Three scouts live down the street from each other.  One drives.  They normally drive everywhere together.  It's hard to prevent them from going food shopping for the campout until they have an adult with them.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

Just now, fred8033 said:

Yeah ... but you can take them to a 3000 acre summer camp and let them disappear for large blocks of time, hiking as far and long as they want, etc ... all without an adult within site of them. 

The rules are not always 100% clear.  Three scouts live down the street from each other.  One drives.  They normally drive everywhere together.  It's hard to prevent them from going food shopping for the campout until they have an adult with them.  

Totally agree...when in the woods, for example, I let some buddies (usually older Scouts) go on excursions as long as they tell me where they are going, when they will be back, and show me they have Scout essentials.

[yknot]

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Totally agree...when in the woods, for example, I let some buddies (usually older Scouts) go on excursions as long as they tell me where they are going, when they will be back, and show me they have Scout essentials.

OK, well in my Council we can't do that. It's two deep at all times. We send four adults to summer camp. 

 

9 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Yes, for realz...

G2SS specifically now states "Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. "

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/

Scouts are not to do any activities without adult supervision.  This has been written for some time now...

Not just for overnighters...

Under that definition, anything a scout is doing is then a scouting activity. A scout attends a town council meeting for Citizenship in the Community would then require two adult leaders to attend with him. Do your units send two leaders to town council meetings with scouts that are working on that merit badge? 

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, yknot said:

OK, well in my Council we can't do that. It's two deep at all times. We send four adults to summer camp. 

 

Under that definition, anything a scout is doing is then a scouting activity. A scout attends a town council meeting for Citizenship in the Community would then require two adult leaders to attend with him. Do your units send two leaders to town council meetings with scouts that are working on that merit badge? 

Now you know the silliness we are trying to point out

[yknot]

Just now, InquisitiveScouter said:

Now you know the silliness we are trying to point out

Neither my Council nor any of the three Councils near me follows your definition of a scout activity. Individual scouts routinely pursue achievements and MB components on their own. They are also free to buddy up with a friend from the same patrol, a different one, another troop, etc., to work on advancement. If boy A jogs down the street to meet boy B to go for a run for Personal Fitness, they do not schedule it with the SM and two leaders do not trail them down the road during the run. 
 

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 minutes ago, yknot said:

Neither my Council nor any of the three Councils near me follows your definition of a scout activity. Individual scouts routinely pursue achievements and MB components on their own. They are also free to buddy up with a friend from the same patrol, a different one, another troop, etc., to work on advancement. If boy A jogs down the street to meet boy B to go for a run for Personal Fitness, they do not schedule it with the SM and two leaders do not trail them down the road during the run. 
 

 

I agree with you completely.  I did not write the G2SS.  Yet, if anything were to happen on say, the Personal Fitness run, for example, I'd be willing to say BSA would not recognize it as a Scouting activity, nor cover any claims.

[yknot]

50 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I agree with you completely.  I did not write the G2SS.  Yet, if anything were to happen on say, the Personal Fitness run, for example, I'd be willing to say BSA would not recognize it as a Scouting activity, nor cover any claims.

Can I just clarify, are you talking about if the scout is out running by himself without two leaders present or are you talking about if he is running with a scout buddy without two leaders present? Or both? Also, who do you think would be liable if a scout went out for a run without supervision or if two scouts decided to go on a run together without supervision? Would it be the SM and the Committee or the MB Counselor? Finally, in your unit, how does this policy get discussed? If you are the SM, do you tell your unit that scouts cannot independently work on MB or rank requirements without two deep adult leadership, or does that come up during SM conferences? Do you refuse to sign off, or do you sign off and tell them not to do it again? 

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 hours ago, yknot said:

Can I just clarify, are you talking about if the scout is out running by himself without two leaders present or are you talking about if he is running with a scout buddy without two leaders present? Or both? Also, who do you think would be liable if a scout went out for a run without supervision or if two scouts decided to go on a run together without supervision? Would it be the SM and the Committee or the MB Counselor? Finally, in your unit, how does this policy get discussed? If you are the SM, do you tell your unit that scouts cannot independently work on MB or rank requirements without two deep adult leadership, or does that come up during SM conferences? Do you refuse to sign off, or do you sign off and tell them not to do it again? 

We don't get in to such details.  A Scout may work on the requirements for things at any time.

Again, I am only pointing out the policy, as written, is ridiculously worded.

[ParkMan]

56 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

We don't get in to such details.  A Scout may work on the requirements for things at any time.

Again, I am only pointing out the policy, as written, is ridiculously worded.

I've never heard of anyone suggesting that you cannot work on advancements outside of a Scouting activity.  This is a very conservative reading of the text in the G2SS.  Yes, the G2SS could be clearer, but it is not as stringent as is being suggested.

If two Scouts who are friends get together and work on a requirement together, no-one is going to tell them to stop or that the activity doesn't count.  The problem is that if two scouts who are friends get together and something happens, a lawyer is going to try to pull the BSA into the lawsuit.

Feels to me that we need some sort of better tort guidelines on what constitutes negligence in volunteer youth activities.  Perhaps something that says that the BSA has some responsibility for safety, but so too do the parents.  A parent who blindly trusts the BSA and it's volunteers without doing parental oversight is themselves negligent.