YP/Program Quality

[InquisitiveScouter]

22 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

Following a few of the other Scouting pages on FB, there are MANY Scouts BSA units flagrantly violating the Co-ed policy.  Units separate on paper only, and they are adamant about it..."this is what works best for us, so bugger off."  Meeting together, camping together, same PLC, same Committee.  Reminds me of the early days of YP...units ignoring it because "that just doesn't work for us."  If this is so important in terms of safety, liability and optics, why do the Councils permit it?  And don't tell me they don't know about it.  THey will still look the other way if it means retaining members and units.  That's how we got in this mess.

And, btw, this whole "separate but equal" thing was a pipe dream from the start.  We had thorough discussions about this in our unit when we looked at creating a girl troop.  We all knew it would come to that...

Separate on paper, combined in reality...

[ParkMan]

This is one of that areas that the BSA can certainly clean up.  They need to be clear what is a YPT rule and what is a program rule.  Mixing the two dilutes the importance of the YPT rules.  It has to be clear what rules require a YPT violation and which rules do not.

Tenting with your special needs child or bringing your son to an event with a troop for girls is not a YPT violation.  This needs to be separate FAQs.

[Eagle1993]

47 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

Following a few of the other Scouting pages on FB, there are MANY Scouts BSA units flagrantly violating the Co-ed policy.  Units separate on paper only, and they are adamant about it..."this is what works best for us, so bugger off."  Meeting together, camping together, same PLC, same Committee.  Reminds me of the early days of YP...units ignoring it because "that just doesn't work for us."  If this is so important in terms of safety, liability and optics, why do the Councils permit it?  And don't tell me they don't know about it.  THey will still look the other way if it means retaining members and units.  That's how we got in this mess.

Currently BSA would  say my son having his best friend come over (who is a scout) when two parents are not home is a violation of Youth Protection.  I'm sure that has happened (his friend has been over and my wife went out on errands when I was home).  So ... I guess I violated YP and should have reported it.  The BSA has expanded YP/Barriers to abuse so broadly, most Troops/Packs/Adult Leaders likely run afoul.  To me, that waters down the YP/B2A and we run into actual risks.

In terms of girls, nearly every girl Troop in my area operates as coed including the one my Troop is associated with.  Councils know it, districts know it and they don't care.  Over half the girls in the Troop have siblings and parent volunteers who were involved with the Boy Troop.  Now ... if BSA really does care, they would crack down, close down those girl and boy Troops who operate that way and be willing to lose volunteers and scouts to other organizations that have implemented fully coed scouting.  

Is having a girl Troop and boy Troop a youth protection concern, a program or a PR concern?  We have a girl from our Girl Troop going with our boys from a Boy Troop crew going to Philmont.  So Philmont, councils, districts and units all ignore the separate gender aspect.  Either take it out of YP and put this into the program FAQs or enforce it and deal with the membership impacts.  YP/B2A must be a non flexible set of rules.  If there is any sort of flex, G2SS, guidance documents, program, various other areas are better for communicating.  Keep YP/B2A lean and enforced.

[elitts]

18 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

This one does not:

 

Q. Can a leader bring their Scouts BSA son or daughter to an opposite gender troop activity?

A. No. Scouts BSA program integrity requires single gender units and single gender buddy pairs. 

That one makes sense to me, at least as a program rule..  Our linked troop has a couple of parents who have decided that their kids can just go camping with whichever troop has the most interesting outing as long as the parent is one of the supervising adults.  It's not a safety issue I don't think, but it is one of "troop integrity".  Or said another way, that restriction is to make sure people aren't skirting the rules of "no co-ed troops".

But I agree that it's not a YP issue and including it there is bad planning.

Edited March 16, 2021 by elitts
clarity

[Eagle1993]

2 minutes ago, elitts said:

It's not a safety issue I don't think,

Then it shouldn't be in the Youth Protection FAQ.

[elitts]

1 minute ago, Eagle1993 said:

Then it shouldn't be in the Youth Protection FAQ.

Agreed.  I'm frequently astounded at the difficulty that organizations tend to have with writing documents of this nature.  The only thing I can think of is that they don't have the same person writing everything so you end up with one person writing a rule, then a completely different person with a different understanding of the rules writing the FAQ.

[5thGenTexan]

I was asking my Webelos aged son yesterday what games they play in PE at school so I would have some Den Meeting ideas.  He asked me if they could play Dodgeball.  Of course I had to explain that it wasn't allowed in Scouts even if they can do it at school.  He then proceeded to ask if "Scouts" want them to have fun or just take our money.

[InquisitiveScouter]

32 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I was asking my Webelos aged son yesterday what games they play in PE at school so I would have some Den Meeting ideas.  He asked me if they could play Dodgeball.  Of course I had to explain that it wasn't allowed in Scouts even if they can do it at school.  He then proceeded to ask if "Scouts" want them to have fun or just take our money.

And your answer was?? 😜

[yknot]

48 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I was asking my Webelos aged son yesterday what games they play in PE at school so I would have some Den Meeting ideas.  He asked me if they could play Dodgeball.  Of course I had to explain that it wasn't allowed in Scouts even if they can do it at school.  He then proceeded to ask if "Scouts" want them to have fun or just take our money.

I don't know if these things are illegal in scouting but we have played them in pack meetings. Tug of War in the hallway. Parachute nerf ball where you have two adults hold a giant slingshot. One kid shoots it up in the air and the kids holding the parachute try to catch it. Badminton. Marble shooting inside of hula hoops on the floor so you don't have marbles all over. You can play other stuff with hula hoops too. There's one game that's a modified dodge ball that we have always thought was legal. You set the hula hoops up in a pyramid against a wall and then let the kids throw balls at them to knock them down. They are not throwing the balls at other kids, just the pyramids. 

[ParkMan]

58 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I was asking my Webelos aged son yesterday what games they play in PE at school so I would have some Den Meeting ideas.  He asked me if they could play Dodgeball.  Of course I had to explain that it wasn't allowed in Scouts even if they can do it at school.  He then proceeded to ask if "Scouts" want them to have fun or just take our money.

Makes me wonder if we never had the abuse lawsuits if the BSA would allow more things like this.  I imagine that with all the abuse suits, the BSA is a bit gun shy on more suits.

When I started, a leader reminded me that the most dangerous activity in the BSA is biking.  Even with helmets they have seen more and worse accidents from biking than anything else.

[Eagle1993]

12 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Makes me wonder if we never had the abuse lawsuits if the BSA would allow more things like this.  I imagine that with all the abuse suits, the BSA is a bit gun shy on more suits.

When I started, a leader reminded me that the most dangerous activity in the BSA is biking.  Even with helmets they have seen more and worse accidents from biking than anything else.

BSA needs to separate the bumps, bruises from the serious injuries, death or life long psychological scarring.  

Laser tag, dodge ball, cordless screw drivers, etc. .... I highly doubt these result in significant injuries.  I've seen worse injuries in my Troop from a stick and a pot of boiling water. 

Equating water guns,  paint ball and laser tag to actual guns is weak.  I think we can teach gun safety with a  .22 riffle while allowing kids to use water guns on a hot day.   (Side note ... my mother in law forbid play guns in her house.  Her son is now probably the biggest pro NRA guy I know and as kids they made EVERYTHING into a gun.)

Put the real high risk items in G2SS and sex abuse/bulling in YP/B2A.  The rest ... let the scouts have fun under they eye of trained leaders.

[Eagledad]

29 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

When I started, a leader reminded me that the most dangerous activity in the BSA is biking.  Even with helmets they have seen more and worse accidents from biking than anything else.

I was talking to our Council Summer Camp organizer about why we were going out of council. When the subject of bikes came up,  he explained that adding bikes to the program would quadruple their insurance cost.

 

13 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Laser tag, dodge ball, cordless screw drivers, etc. .... I highly doubt these result in significant injuries.  I've seen worse injuries in my Troop from a stick and a pot of boiling water. 

Might as well include calling the Bob Cat ceremony a hazing activity because the scouts were held up-side-down while getting their badge.. They could have used reason and said it was a safety concern and all would have been fine. But they instead tried to portray the volunteers innocent intension as something foul and self-serving. That was when I realized the professionals were not  as professional as the standard the volunteers expected of them. We volunteers should have held National accountable for their emotional helicoptering mis-leadership actions.

Barry

[5thGenTexan]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

And your answer was?? 😜

I had to sit and think a minute, wondering if he came up with that on his own or has heard me talking.

I didnt really tell him he was wrong.:)

[David CO]

4 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

He then proceeded to ask if "Scouts" want them to have fun or just take our money.

No question about it.  They just want to take our money.

[5thGenTexan]

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I was talking to our Council Summer Camp organizer about why we were going out of council. When the subject of bikes came up,  he explained that adding bikes to the program would quadruple their insurance cost.

 

Might as well include calling the Bob Cat ceremony a hazing activity because the scouts were held up-side-down while getting their badge.. They could have used reason and said it was a safety concern and all would have been fine. But they instead tried to portray the volunteers innocent intension as something foul and self-serving. That was when I realized the professionals were not  as professional as the standard the volunteers expected of them. We volunteers should have held National accountable for their emotional helicoptering mis-leadership actions.

Barry

This is me.  Early 80s.  CM who is hanging me upside down is my dad.