New Scoutmaster wants to award service hours to scouts that help in the ceremony of upcoming Eagle Scout Court of Honor.

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Thing is, when a family strongly wishes to have their own "day", and then the event is not well-attended (because the Scout and/or family was not well-regarded), it does tend to make it sour for them.  You can lead the horse to water...

I was the worst at attending these - even as Troop Committee Chair.  There's only so many hours for volunteering and since so many of them were on a Saturday afternoon I was always doing something else.   In our troop of 50+, there might be 5-10 Scouts there.

To me this was another reason to do them at a Troop COH.  Better to have the whole troop there on a normal Scout night to see the event than the 5-10 that knew the Scout well enough to go to their special event.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by ParkMan
grammar

[qwazse]

3 hours ago, Kamala said:

... And then of course everything needs to be fair so scouts would want to know why they didn't get service hours for COH of any kind that they participated in.

This is not complicated. Stop worrying about service hours. The only reason BSA wants you to count it is so that they can for-sure-brag about the dollar utility of scouting to this nation.

The scout slogan is Do a good turn daily. If scouts are doing that -- and it sounds like they are -- then they've performed the requisite hours of service. If not, then no dog-and-pony show at an ECoH or clocking hours at some project will make a hill of beans difference in the youth's scout spirit.

Tell your boys to help the old folks in your life to navigate vaccine sign-up. I assure you that they will wind up putting in more hours than they need for any rank by the time everyone in their circle is dosed.

[InquisitiveScouter]

If any need some extra time, I tell my Scouts, "Go for a long walk with your parents and pick up litter along the way."  Physical fitness, family togetherness, clean community, a good turn done, and service hour beans counted.  Win/win/win/win/sarcastic win....😝

[swilliams]

A funny anecdote: we've been buried in snow here in NJ for a while.  We still can't meet indoors, so we'd planned on holding our latest COH at an outdoor amphitheater.  A few days before the COH, with the area still buried in snow, the SM called on the scouts to come help shovel the snow away from the benches and stage, and clear a couple paths to get into the area.

A bunch of scouts showed up and did the clearing.  The amphitheater is next to a nature museum, and the director of some of the children's programs there, when she found the area cleared, told our SM that with the area cleared, the museum could resume outdoor classes that had been halted because the area was inaccessible.  So... after the fact, he gave two hours of not-so-easy-to-get conservation hours to the scouts that showed.

Taught a lesson to a couple who needed the conservation hours, but couldn't be bothered to show up for what they thought was non-service for our own Troop.  🤣

[fred8033]

On 3/2/2021 at 3:01 PM, Kamala said:

To me this would be service benefiting the troop directly so that would not count.  But if so I need direct verbage so he understands and I can't find it in the Guide to Advancement under section 4.2.3.3

Thank you

@Kamala ...  You can't find it in the Guide To Advancement because it's not a rule.  It's troop folklore and what others leaders have traditionally seen.  I myself do not like the idea of needing to use court of honor service as "service hours".  ... BUT ... there is no official rule saying outside of scouting.

BSA rank requirements are written to be precise to interpret.  If the words are not there, it's not part of the requirement.  Examples: 

• Since joining scouting
• Do not include
• Before you start

When the words are not there, it's not part of the requirements.  Other than the Eagle rank, none of the other ranks say for an organization other than BSA.   

The earlier mentioned Bryan On Scouting was about "can it be" outside scouting?  I'd suggest also reading this Bryan On Scouting.   https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2019/05/30/does-helping-fellow-scouts-count-for-service-requirements/

"We’ve received this question numerous times from Scouters with many different projects in question:

• Volunteering at Cub Scout day camp
• Improving trails at a council camp
• Helping a Cub Scout pack set up for a blue and gold banquet or Pinewood Derby
• Cleaning up another troop’s trailer or meeting place
• Assisting Cub Scouts during a Cub Scout fundraiser

"The simple answer is: Any of those projects could count."

Another good Bryan On Scouting list of ideas:  https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/10/09/101-great-scout-service-project-ideas/

In our troop, we routinely counted camp ranger service hours, helping charter org, etc.  We did not count anything that was part of the normal troop meetings or activities.  I'm sure our troop had counted planned a service project such as scouting for food or serving as an OA elangomat or helping with OA elections.  I don't remember any scout needing to count ECOH service, but Bryan On Scouting said:  "We also recommend that you encourage your Scouts to look for opportunities to help others wherever and whenever they can. You can point them to projects they can do for their fellow Scouts, "

PERSONAL OPINION:  Service hour requirements are an opportunity to celebrate service in a discussion between the scout and his scoutmaster.  "Great job"  "How did you feel after helping"  ... We're teaching the wrong lesson when we get legalistic on service hours or give the scouts a form to fill out to track service hours.  The "requirement" is about teaching scouts to value helping others.  Period.  Yes we expect a bit more each rank, but that's about maturing.  ...  If the SM sees a scout trying to "get away" with "iffy" hours or gaming the system, don't sweat it and don't play the approve/disapprove card.  Instead open a conversation with the scout on why scouting values service.  Then, resolve it during a friendly conversation.

TOO BIG FOR THIS THREAD:  Whether the BOR can reverse a SM on hours counted ...  I don't think this is as clear cut.  ... Easier to focus on a future discussion with the scoutmaster and not necessarily sending the scout back.  

Edited March 5, 2021 by fred8033

[swilliams]

On 3/3/2021 at 9:40 PM, qwazse said:

File under: Why bean-counting of service hours should be stricken from all rank advancement requirements.

I upvoted this yesterday, but came back to it to add a comment. I agree - mostly. Service can be evaluated as part of Scout Spirit, and could be folded into the SM Conference.

At the same time, having specifics laid out helps in a couple ways. Some SMs may not be comfortable telling a scout he doesn’t think they have earned their next rank due to something that would be subjective.  What constitutes enough service?

It also gives a scout a concrete goal that he/she can plan for. Particularly helpful as they get older and may have a lot of obligations pulling them different directions. 

Side note: Our Troop gives bronze, silver, and gold challenge coins for service.  Many of our scouts earn the bronze level, 50 hours, by the time they age out. They don’t do it for the coins, but it’s a nice recognition.

Silver is 75; gold is 100.

[fred8033]

On 3/4/2021 at 12:34 PM, ParkMan said:

... I've never been a big fan of parents organizing an Eagle COH.  It forces parents to figure out how to put together an Eagle COH everytime and puts a lot of stress on them. In addition, that usually then adds yet another event to the troop schedule.  ...

 

On 3/4/2021 at 12:42 PM, Kamala said:

...  Usually we tag on an Eagle Court of Honor after a regular Court of Honor.  We usually don't have a problem with attendance.   The SPL I agree can help with this.    I have been in scouting now 20 years.  All the troops I have been in with my two sons, the Eagle Court of Honor was usually organized by the parent(s) with guidance from the scout leadership.

 

I've been to many ECOHs over the years.  My strong preference is to tack the Eagle recognition at the end of a normal COH.  It creates a strong connection between the scout's accomplishment and the troop.  Sets a great example.  If it's separate, it's not really a "troop function" and attendance is always poor.  Having ECOH in the normal COH, it's very well attended and adds to the celebration.  But then again, the Eagle portion is five/ten minutes not sixty minutes.  

Parent involvement / stress is much reduced as the main challenge is to invite friends and family.  

If parents ask what they can do to help, I suggest contributing a bit more food to help cover the number of invited guests.  ... Every one of our COHs is a meal in some way.  Potluck.  Grilled food.  etc.  First meal, then ceremony.   A few times, the parents volunteered to host the food for the whole COH.  Our scouts and leaders never said no to that.     If asked what I liked, I'd say steak with a straight face ... then smile.   ...  Never got steak.   But always a good time and positive experience for the scouts.

Edited March 5, 2021 by fred8033

[Kamala]

Usually this is what happens but this happens to be for 7 scouts.   

Thank you all for your suggestions, sources of information and insight.  I really appreciate and I think I have enough information now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mrjohns2]

On 3/4/2021 at 12:29 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Then I recommend you bring up the matter at the next committee meeting.  Express your concern that granting service hours to conduct or support unit-centric events may not meet the intent of service hours.  Explain you talked with District Advancement Chair (?) and they are in concurrence.  Discuss and vote.  Inform the SM.  SM is not a voting member of committee, but should give the committee his/her perspective.

Uh, that isn’t how it works. This is solely they SM decision under the G2A. You can console him, but not override him. This isn’t an advancement coordinator role or a committee topic. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by mrjohns2

[InquisitiveScouter]

8 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Uh, that isn’t how it works. This is solely they SM decision under the G2A. You can console him, but not override him. This isn’t an advancement coordinator role or a committee topic. 

Sure it is...

In the extreme, yes, you can override the SM...by relieving them of the job.  Now, this case shouldn't get there, and can probably be resolved by talking it out with the SM and Committee.

The worst parts of this situation are 1.  that Scouts are caught in the middle, 2. SM has misguided idea of what constitutes service, 3. it sets a really bad precedent (the slippery slope), and 4. what about the Scouts who participated in the last COH or other unit function?  Where are their "service" hours?

Really hope this works out easily and well for you.  Please let us know how it goes...curious.

[mrjohns2]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Sure it is...

You must not have read the same guides I have. The decision to approve rests solely with the SM. Yes, the CC could relieve them, but they cannot override them. It is not how the unit is structured. That is, unless you can point out where a) the committee voting process is a thing and b) the CC does more than support the program vs carting it out. I’m not saying you think they should, but the buck stops with the SM on advancement as long as they follow G2A. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

@mrjohns2

OK, so do you think the SM is correct in approving "service" in this manner...whether he has "authority" to do it or not?

[fred8033]

42 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

@mrjohns2

OK, so do you think the SM is correct in approving "service" in this manner...whether he has "authority" to do it or not?

@mrjohns2 is pointing out where authority lies with approving the service hours.  Per GTA, that's clearly with the scoutmaster.  Whether he should or should not approve that type of hours is a separate qusetion.  Whether a BOR can reverse him is an extremely very ugly situation and usually only results in explicit damage.  

With that said ... once we get to the point of discussing who has the authority and how, we're way off the tracks.  As with many things in life, the best way to handle differences is by direct conversation.  Get to know each others views.  Repeat his words to him to see if you are really hearing him correctly and if he said it right.  Try to understand why he's taking tha tposition.  See if there is a compromise.  See if there is a way to accomplish each other's goals in a different route that creates common understanding.  

Even bringing before the committee often makes things too stressful and creates annimosity.  

And accept, you will not always get what you want.  You may need to look at the preponderance of the situation.  Is the SM generally doing right by the scouts?  If so, be thankful and support him.  

Edited March 6, 2021 by fred8033

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

@mrjohns2 is pointing out where authority lies with approving the service hours.  Per GTA, that's clearly with the scoutmaster.  Whether he should or should not approve that type of hours is a separate qusetion.  Whether a BOR can reverse him is an extremely very ugly situation and usually only results in explicit damage.  

With that said ... once we get to the point of discussing who has the authority and how, we're way off the tracks.  As with many things in life, the best way to handle differences is by direct conversation.  Get to know each others views.  Repeat his words to to him to see if you are really hearing him correctly and if he said it right.  See if there is a compromise.  See if there is a way to accomplish each other's goals in a different route that creates common understanding.  

Even bringing before the committee often makes things too stressful and creates annimosity.  

And accept, you will not always get what you want.  You may need to look at the preponderance of the situation.  Is the SM generally doing right by the scouts?  If so, get out of his way and support him.  

Completely agree.  I was pursuing this as a question of first principles...  if it ever gets to that point, we have already all failed

[mrjohns2]

6 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

With that said ... once we get to the point of discussing who has the authority and how, we're way off the tracks.  As with many things in life, the best way to handle differences is by direct conversation. 

I am happy to agree with you 100%. I do think the SM should not approve this. As a CC, if they approved before we could discuss, I would not “override”. I would, though, discuss with the SM or that it wasn’t a good idea.