New Scoutmaster wants to award service hours to scouts that help in the ceremony of upcoming Eagle Scout Court of Honor.

[Kamala]

To me this would be service benefiting the troop directly so that would not count.  But if so I need direct verbage so he understands and I can't find it in the Guide to Advancement under section 4.2.3.3

Thank you

[RememberSchiff]

@Kamalaon behalf of the moderators of scouter.com, welcome.

Edited March 2, 2021 by RememberSchiff

[CynicalScouter]

First, welcome.

Second, yea. This is not a "service to the community". It is troop/unit service.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2013/05/17/service-hours/

 

[Kamala]

So the scoutmaster says he found through research that he can decide if an event should be considered for service as a scoutmaster.   This is an Eagle Scout Ceremony for scouts in our troop.  I'm not understanding why they should be bribed to volunteer to help out if first they are asked and second they are doing a good turn by participating and how do you count the time spent.

Secondly, our district advancement says "Service cannot be for the benefit of the Scouting Organization.  Defeats the purpose of “Service”. "   

So if you are saying "It is troop/unit service" that it be documented as such?  

 

[DavidLeeLambert]

The Scoutmaster is right that he has the power to approve or disapprove service (for rank advancement, not for merit badges or Eagle), but if you're on the committee or a commissioner you should encourage him to use that power wisely and fairly.

As a general rule, work on the actual service of another Scout's Eagle Project should count as service hours for any participating Scout. But I wouldn't expect the ceremony to count as service hours for the candidate; by that time, his project should be finished, approved, closed out, turned over. He should be done with it.

[Kamala]

Its not for the Eagle candidates......its for the Scouts that are Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life and Eagle participating in the Eagle ceremony lighting the candle that represents their rank as well as scouts helping at the sign-in, opening /closing flag ceremony etc....

[InquisitiveScouter]

@Kamala,

It is inappropriate for the SM to do this.  But, no one is really going to enforce a "community service" standard, other than the unit committee themselves.

If the SM approves it, the unit committee can, during their Board of Review, look at the Scout's service hour requirement and deem the requirement was not completed.  The BoR recourse would then be to send the Scout back to finish that requirement, and tell the SM that it was inappropriate to award service hours for service to Scouting.  By the way, verifying that a Scout completed the requirements is one of the MAIN purposes of a BoR.

The SM works for the Committee.  The Committee constructs and conducts BoRs, and those are, somewhat, a performance review for the SM, not the Scout

If the Committee is unwilling to enforce it...not much anyone else is going to do.

[KublaiKen]

I read things like this and wonder what in the heck this SM is thinking. How convoluted is the thought process that decides helping at your own Troop's COH should count as community service hours? What next, cooking for your patrol?

In fairness, I am sure people often wonder the same about me.

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by KublaiKen
Hit Enter too soon.

[qwazse]

File under: Why bean-counting of service hours should be stricken from all rank advancement requirements.

[Eagle94-A1]

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! (and yes I am shouting in joy at ya;) )

2.. You new SM is incorrect.  BSA's definition of community service is found in Eagle Scout requirement 5 which states, "

"While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project must benefit an organization other than the Boy Scouts of America.) (emphasis added) A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your Scoutmaster and unit committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement. (To learn more about the Eagle Scout service project, see the Guide to Advancement, topics 9.0.2.0 through 9.0.2.15.)"

So no, participating in an Eagle COH is NOT community service. Nor would I say it is troop service. I is a troop expectation, obligation  activity, whatever you want to call it.  In every troop i have ever been in, it was expected that we would be there. Also in regards to community service at the lower ranks, this definition has been used in every unit I have ever been in. So working CS day camp, serving as a volunteer at summer camp, doing an OA Ordeal also do not count as community service.

[InquisitiveScouter]

17 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! (and yes I am shouting in joy at ya;) )

2.. You new SM is incorrect.  BSA's definition of community service is found in Eagle Scout requirement 5 which states, "

"While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project must benefit an organization other than the Boy Scouts of America.) (emphasis added) A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your Scoutmaster and unit committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement. (To learn more about the Eagle Scout service project, see the Guide to Advancement, topics 9.0.2.0 through 9.0.2.15.)"

So no, participating in an Eagle COH is NOT community service. Nor would I say it is troop service. I is a troop expectation, obligation  activity, whatever you want to call it.  In every troop i have ever been in, it was expected that we would be there. Also in regards to community service at the lower ranks, this definition has been used in every unit I have ever been in. So working CS day camp, serving as a volunteer at summer camp, doing an OA Ordeal also do not count as community service.

@Eagle94-A1, you have complete agreement from me, but I think what the OP was getting at is that 4.2.3.3 does not specifically say what you have cited from the ESSP verbiage, so the SM thinks anything goes...

[Kamala]

Yes @Eagle94-A1 that is the dilemma and I believe that is the source he is using.   However the district advancement chair says it doesn't fall in the realm of service as well.  And then of course everything needs to be fair so scouts would want to know why they didn't get service hours for COH of any kind that they participated in.

[Eagle94-A1]

One of the reasons I hate BSA's legalese. And multiple publications state multiple things.

What I would like to know is how is an Eagle Court of Honor benefitting the community? First it is a unit activity, even if the Eagle Scout does all the work in planning, preparing, and decorating. Second it benefits only the Eagle(s), and not an organization.

How long has this SM been involved in Scouting and Scouts BSA specifically? Have they done any training?

[Kamala]

He has done Outdoor leader training and scoutmaster training.  Recently  he also attended Wood Badge.  He has just become the scoutmaster last April, '20.  Before that maybe two years as an asst. scoutmaster.

[InquisitiveScouter]

18 minutes ago, Kamala said:

He has done Outdoor leader training and scoutmaster training.  Recently  he also attended Wood Badge.  He has just become the scoutmaster last April, '20.  Before that maybe two years as an asst. scoutmaster.

It's gone to his head

And curious, but what is your role in this??

Edited March 4, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter