National releases membership numbers. All programs down 40-48%

[MisterH]

19 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I joined Cub Scouts as a Wolf in the 82/83 school year.  I couldnt tell you if we had Tigers or not.  I know I was never a Tiger.

As current CM, I am not sure I see much point in Lions/Tigers.  I think Wolf would be a good starting point.

I joined as a Wolf in the 83/84 school year. My Bear year (84/85) was the first year our pack had Tigers. We had a large and active pack at the time (60 or so kids), so it wouldn't surprise me if they started a Tiger den soon after the program launched in 82. Cheers to the memory of Pack 279 at Our Lady of Grace Catholic School in the now-defunct Calumet Council, and camping as a pack at Indiana Dunes in early March (brrrrr!)

I always thought the point of Tigers and now Lions was to get the kids into Scouting before other activities could sink their claws into them.

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, MisterH said:

I always thought the point of Tigers and now Lions was to get the kids into Scouting before other activities could sink their claws into them.

That...membership = money

[Eagle94-A1]

Tiger Cub History

It was an experimental program up to August 1982 and it was for 2nd Graders. After August 1982 until some time in the 1990s it was a "separate, optional program affiliated with the pack" or words to that affect. They earned the square Tiger Cub Gradate patch for completing the program, and the uniform was a orange t-shirt with iron-on tiger paws

In the mid 1990s, they were incorporated  into the packs, but still wore the tshirts, although they wer suppose to wear blue shorts/pants with the blue and orange socks. Instead of the square patch, they earned a Tiger Cub Strip patch

Shortly thereafter,  the Cub Scout program went from a 4 year program, including Tiger Cubs, to a 5 year program including Tiger Cubs. Only LDS packs kept the original 3 year Cub Scout program. They also got to wear the blue shirts with Tiger Cub Necker, slide, and hat, as well as the Tiger Cub Rank patch. First it was worn on a belt fob, then on the blue shirt.

Sometime in the 2010s, they switch from Tiger Cub to Tigers. And in 2018 National brought back the name Lions, but used it for Kindergartners instead of the oldest group.

[mrjohns2]

17 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

It was an experimental program up to August 1982 and it was for 2nd Graders. After August 1982 until some time in the 1990s it was a "separate, optional program affiliated with the pack" or words to that affect. They earned the square Tiger Cub Gradate patch for completing the program, and the uniform was a orange t-shirt with iron-on tiger paws

I was in that group in 1982. I believe there was also a poster with tiger paw stickers. There were hats as well. 

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I was in that group in 1982. I believe there was also a poster with tiger paw stickers. There were hats as well. 

Yep. there were two types of iron on paws, the first batch had cut outs of the different activities. They were a major pain to iron on because if you didn't do it just right, the pawprint was screwed up.

[Eagle1993]

Parents these days seem to select programs early.  If BSA doesn’t have an offering for K5 and 1st graders they may never sign up.   There is a lot more competition between youth programs now.

That said, burn out is real.  I wonder if there is a different solution.  Perhaps Lions and Tigers are not part of a pack.  They are stand alone programs between the District and parents.  Low key, low cost and a way for the Pack to get a list of names and parents for the Wolf Scout Den.  
 

Tough decision as I see both sides of the coin on this one.  

[MattR]

4 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

 That said, burn out is real.  I wonder if there is a different solution.

Lots of kids start dropping out of all the activities they are over subscribed to just about the time they would be mature enough to have fun in scouts. Just about the time sports gets overly competitive might be a good time to have a scout membership drive.

I never did cub scouts and my son got bored with cub scouts and we took 2 years out of the middle of it because I didn't want to see him burn out. I would have been okay skipping all of it. It had it's fun parts but certainly not all those years worth. Or make it a single season per year for 3 years.

But that means less money for the council. Until the council can figure out how to make that work this is all just wishful thinking.

[ParkMan]

Around where I am, the council has very little impact on recruiting.  Recruiting in our area is driven almost entirely by units.  If there was a path to recruiting older Scouts, I think our troops would try it.  I just don't think they see a path.  Maybe if we could figure out how to recruit those older kids into the program this wouldn't be such a big deal.

The obvious path for recruiting is still to recruit tigers & wolves and then keep them in the program.

 

[Eagle1993]

9 hours ago, MattR said:

Just about the time sports gets overly competitive might be a good time to have a scout membership drive.

Perhaps, but I would say 90% of the 5th grade scouts started as 1st graders.  We advertise to every grade each year and rarely get new 2nd - 5th grade scouts.  Like I said, there is a chance this could work. On the other hand, starting at Wolf might mean you have a lot of 2nd graders who will never be scouts that would have been scouts if you had a K5 or 1st grade program.

It may be a good idea for BSA to encourage at some Packs who have shown a history of attrition either within the Cub program or greater than expected between Cub/Scouts BSA.

Also, since I know they will never completely end Lions or Tigers it may be interesting to see if they look at the UK structure where they break up the younger scouts a bit more.

 

[David CO]

11 hours ago, MattR said:

Just about the time sports gets overly competitive

You might be a little biased against sports.  Many people, including kids, would disagree that middle school sports are overly competitive.  Boys often thrive on competition.  Not all boys.  Just like with scouting, competitive sports don't appeal to everyone.

 

[MattR]

7 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I just don't think they see a path

Totally agree. But the burnout is still there. 

Here's an idea, borrow from the gsusa: let parents create dens of friends. Don't worry about small age differences. Encourage it for Webelos age. Tie these neighborhood dens to a pack. Allow them to be seasonal. The council could help advertise that. 

One reason it's hard to recruit is that everyone assumes scouting starts at lions and if you miss that then you're behind. That's what needs to change.

[mrjohns2]

4 minutes ago, MattR said:

Here's an idea, borrow from the gsusa: let parents create dens of friends. Don't worry about small age differences. Encourage it for Webelos age. Tie these neighborhood dens to a pack.

Other than being seasonal, how is this different? Dens are grade based, like GSUSA already. 

[MattR]

6 minutes ago, David CO said:

You might be a little biased against sports.  Many people, including kids, would disagree that middle school sports are overly competitive.  Boys often thrive on competition.  Not all boys.  Just like with scouting, competitive sports don't appeal to everyone.

 

Good point. Maybe competitive isn't quite the right term. More like time consuming. It's not school sports but more club sports. School sports are much more balanced. My son wanted to keep playing with the advanced level soccer players but he didn't want to travel all over the state for competitions. And yes part of that was me not wanting to drive all over the state.

A similar thing happened with band. My son wanted to keep playing trumpet but that meant he had to be in the marching band for football and basketball season. And that didn't include just playing in the regular band, which is all he wanted. So he left that as well.

[MattR]

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

Other than being seasonal, how is this different? Dens are grade based, like GSUSA already. 

What little I remember of GS is that there were typically 2 or 3 different ages in the troops I saw. It was more important to have friends in a troop than a single age. That might have not been typical or allowed, but that's what I saw. Make advancement a bit more flexible in cub scouts, it's already repetitive, and I think it would help.

This is more a change in how and when to recruit than anything else. Friendships and similar personalities are just as important as program. When my son took a break from cub scouts it was more about the personalities. After 2 years of 2 scouts that just ruined too many meetings he said he was done. When he came back it was with his friends, and then he had a lot more fun.

I knew what was coming in scouts so I was fine with the break. Not many people understand the change and I suspect that's why there's a drive to keep kids in the program for 12 years. Everyone assumes it's like school and you can't skip grades. The council brings in more money with that mindset so they have no reason to change it.

There could be all sorts of changes to alleviate burnout. But they all require the ability to tinker with things. This gets back to the thread about new regions and whether councils have much control over the program.

[David CO]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

It's not school sports but more club sports. School sports are much more balanced.

I agree.  But school budgets are limited and not all sports are offered.  I very much doubt that we will ever offer hockey or figure skating.  Ice time is prohibitively expensive.  So kids need to go to club sports if that is their area of interest.

I have always felt that there is little point in putting down other programs.  Sports and scouting are like apples and oranges.  You can like one.  You can like both.  You can like neither.  Your choice.