The story of Bugler Boy James Gillies (NC)

[RememberSchiff]

North Carolina: Scouts honor the service and sacrifice of a 14 year  James Gillies —“a beardless, unarmed youth”—was the bugler for American General "Light Horse" Harry Lee. During an impromptu reconnaissance mission, Gillies was killed by the British Army near the current-day Oak Ridge/Summerfield town limits on Oak Ridge Road.

Interesting video interview with scouts including scout bugler:

https://myfox8.com/news/buckley-report-the-story-of-a-bugler-boy/

More at source link:

https://www.summerfieldnc.gov/index.asp?SEC=C3FB91F1-C656-4336-B855-D9948EAC060A&DE=EE3B01BF-20EB-46B8-8780-EA7E40D04899

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by RememberSchiff

[David CO]

I don't see the point of relating these stories of past teenage heroes to our scouts.  It would be different if we encouraged current-day teenage boys to follow their examples.  But we don't.  We prohibit it.

So what is the point of pointing out the fact that our scouts are expected to behave like total wimps in comparison to the actions and attitudes of past teenagers.  Are we trying to shame our kids for obeying our rules?  

It doesn't make sense to me.  It's bad enough that the boys have to follow our rules.  Let's not rub their noses in it.

[CynicalScouter]

31 minutes ago, David CO said:

It would be different if we encouraged current-day teenage boys to follow their examples.   But we don't.  We prohibit it.

Yes, we as a society have made a decision that child-soldiers should be prohibited. Not only in the United States (where the minimum age to enlist is 17) as well as globally, where the use of child soldiers under the age of of 15 is considered a war crime.

Quote

The Additional Protocols to the 1949 Geneva Conventions (1977, Art. 77.2),^[71] the convention on the Rights of the Child (1989), and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (2002) all forbid state armed forces and non-state armed groups from using children under the age of 15 directly in armed conflict (technically "hostilities"). This is now recognised as a war crime

So yes: we do prohibit it. And I say: thank goodness.

That does not detract from the bravery of Gillies. But it recognizes that we are not the nation (or the world) of 1781 in terms of how we treat young people.

Edited February 20, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[David CO]

It's not just about child soldiers.  We exemplify the behaviors we prohibit.  We put kids, both real and imagined, up on a pedestal for acts of courage.  Then we tell our kids not to do it themselves.  Strange.  

I saw a movie the other day on Netflix about kids treasure hunting in Hawaii.  Basically a remake of The Goonies.  The movie characters (teenagers) put themselves in ridiculously perilous situations.  The movies POV is clearly that the kids are praiseworthy for doing so.  

Think about it.  Have you ever seen a film in which the teenage characters wisely refrain from placing themselves in danger, and are praised and rewarded for their good sense and obedience to the rules?  Can you name one?

 

[CynicalScouter]

48 minutes ago, David CO said:

We put kids, both real and imagined, up on a pedestal for acts of courage. 

Because these should be the EXCEPTION. Not the rule.

And referencing fictional movies or advocating child-soldiers (again, war crime in the modern era) cannot be the answer.

[yknot]

44 minutes ago, David CO said:

It's not just about child soldiers.  We exemplify the behaviors we prohibit.  We put kids, both real and imagined, up on a pedestal for acts of courage.  Then we tell our kids not to do it themselves.  Strange.  

I saw a movie the other day on Netflix about kids treasure hunting in Hawaii.  Basically a remake of The Goonies.  The movie characters (teenagers) put themselves in ridiculously perilous situations.  The movies POV is clearly that the kids are praiseworthy for doing so.  

Think about it.  Have you ever seen a film in which the teenage characters wisely refrain from placing themselves in danger, and are praised and rewarded for their good sense and obedience to the rules?  Can you name one?

 

That's kind of pervasive. Most Young Adult literature and media present children as heroic figures in dangerous mythical or dystopian settings, resolving crises that adults can't solve or can't do so alone. In this case, I'm not sure if you watched the video, but the scouts and the media weren't exemplifying. The scouts were mostly aghast at what happened to a 14 year old. All they were doing was honoring and remembering him. They certainly weren't saying they wanted to go to war. 

 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

That's kind of pervasive. Most Young Adult literature and media present children as heroic figures in dangerous mythical or dystopian settings, resolving crises that adults can't solve or can't do so alone. In this case, I'm not sure if you watched the video, but the scouts and the media weren't exemplifying. The scouts were mostly aghast at what happened to a 14 year old. All they were doing was honoring and remembering him. They certainly weren't saying they wanted to go to war. 

 

True.  The Harry Potter series would be a good example.  In the final book, the teachers lead the students into war.  At least that series didn't have children murdering children as in The Hunger Games.

 

[yknot]

44 minutes ago, David CO said:

True.  The Harry Potter series would be a good example.  In the final book, the teachers lead the students into war.  At least that series didn't have children murdering children as in The Hunger Games.

 

I was aghast when Hunger Games made it onto our district's 4th grade summer reading list. We're a long way from Lassie.

 

[David CO]

51 minutes ago, yknot said:

I was aghast when Hunger Games made it onto our district's 4th grade summer reading list. We're a long way from Lassie.

 

Yes we are.  The thing I find so strange is that there seems to be an inverse relationship here.  The more we protect (bubble wrap) kids in the real world, the more the literary world has kids endangering themselves.   I am not usually a psychology type of person, but I think there must be something going on here.  Maybe the kids' reading preferences are a reaction to having an over-protected life.

[yknot]

Just now, David CO said:

Yes we are.  The thing I find so strange is that there seems to be an inverse relationship here.  The more we protect (bubble wrap) kids in the real world, the more the literary world has kids endangering themselves.   I am not usually a psychology type of person, but I think there must be something going on here.  Maybe the kids' reading preferences are a reaction to having an over-protected life.

I don't know. I think the average suburban kid in a stable home is well protected from physical harm, but psychologically I think society dangles them over cliffs. In many ways, kids are not allowed to be kids any more. Mentally they are pushed into adult situations and adult stress loads. The attraction for this kind of literature and media may be that it presents kids with characters who are able to survive in chaotic, dangerous worlds where adults are no longer in control or can't be trusted. Whatever it is, there is definitely something going on though and it's disturbing. 

[ALongWalk]

My son’s Eagle Scout project honored former slaves that lived where we live now.  Unfortunately, that is not viewed as a worthwhile aspiration for too many in our community so I tried to help him understand the blowback he might receive.  He didn’t give a flip about what those folks might do or say as a result of his project. That’s pretty brave in my book. Bravery is not just about imminent physical danger. 

BTW, he didn’t get much negative feedback. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

16 hours ago, David CO said:

Yes we are.  The thing I find so strange is that there seems to be an inverse relationship here.  The more we protect (bubble wrap) kids in the real world, the more the literary world has kids endangering themselves.   I am not usually a psychology type of person, but I think there must be something going on here.  Maybe the kids' reading preferences are a reaction to having an over-protected life.

 

16 hours ago, yknot said:

I don't know. I think the average suburban kid in a stable home is well protected from physical harm, but psychologically I think society dangles them over cliffs. In many ways, kids are not allowed to be kids any more. Mentally they are pushed into adult situations and adult stress loads. The attraction for this kind of literature and media may be that it presents kids with characters who are able to survive in chaotic, dangerous worlds where adults are no longer in control or can't be trusted. Whatever it is, there is definitely something going on though and it's disturbing. 

Gents,  young people (you included, when you were young)  have a need for risk and an element of danger, if for nothing more than to find out what the boundaries are...  This is primary territory for scouting.

If you have time, two good articles....shocking statistic about "roaming distance" btw

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/14/risk-essential-childhood-children-danger

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/aug/16/childre-nature-outside-play-health

[skeptic]

I am reminded reading this about the reason many of the early "Scout pulp fiction" was mostly NOT recognized or recommended by BSA.  Many of the stories were so outlandish to be just dumb, but a few might have encouraged young people to try dangerous things, or to get involved in unsavory habits.  

[David CO]

14 minutes ago, skeptic said:

many of the early "Scout pulp fiction" was mostly NOT recognized or recommended by BSA.  

I would imagine that this made their sales increase.

[MattR]

On 2/20/2021 at 7:31 AM, David CO said:

I don't see the point of relating these stories of past teenage heroes to our scouts

I can. I watched the video and what I saw was a group of kids that were shocked that a 14 year old died in a war. I'm guessing this had a big impact on them. I say that because when I was their age I walked through the US military cemetery overlooking Omaha Beach. What hit me we're all the soldiers that died and how they were mostly just a few years older than I when they died. For me, recognizing the fallen wasn't about glory. But it was a really good history lesson.