Eagle Board of Review concerns

[sunshinescout]

I'm a Life Scout working on my Eagle project.  I wanted to get the advice of some experienced Scouters here.

In my council, Eagle BORs and project reviews are done by the district.  In my experience, both personally and talking to other scouts, the district Scouters do not faithfully follow the requirements or the Guide to Advancement.  For example, some of them require fundraising for projects that don't need it (GTA 9.0.2.10 Fundraising Issues says otherwise), routinely reject project proposals that are mostly sound, call scouts back for multiple meetings, and ask for additional information outside of what the project workbook asks (GTA 9.0.2.7 says an effort should be made to have just one meeting and GTA 9.0.21 says "we will not require proposals to include more than described in the" workbook), among other inconsistencies.  Some of the district Scouters also weren't very "helpful, friendly, courteous, kind" to me, or other scouts, by being overly critical and asking overly pointed questions, despite us doing our best to remain respectful.

Several district representatives I spoke with at one of my project reviews didn't like my project (it's a little out of the box, but I've been assured by others that it is a fine project).  My scoutmaster and beneficiary are pleased with the progress being made on the project and have assured me that I am on track to meet their expectations.  I really like my scoutmaster and adults in my troop and have worked very well coordinating with my beneficiary., who's been very helpful.  I'm very close to completing the project.  

However I'm worried that when it comes time for my Eagle board of review they will ask for me to redo the project or make changes, which again isn't consistent with the Guide to Advancement.  (GTA 9.0.2.13 Evaluating the Project After Completion says that

Quote

"At the board of review, if an approved proposal and any subsequent effort represents planning and development that was adequate to the project, and the project was well led and carried out to the satisfaction of the unit leader and project beneficiary, only in a very rare case would rejection result. It would have to be clearly established that Eagle Scout requirement 5—as written— was not completed."

but I've been told that scouts have been sent back to do work to meet some of the district Scouters' arbitrary and varying definitions of "leadership.")

Do you have any advice for me?  Is my district typical of what you've seen in your experience?

Can you provide any insight into appealing to council/national?  Are they good at applying the Guide to Advancement and the requirement as written?

I feel really badly that I have to worry about this as a Scout, and the randomness/arbitrary nature of my district's standards for Eagles seems unfair.  It's added a lot of stress to my Eagle project, which I feel should be an enjoyable milestone of my scouting experience.

 

[MattR]

Welcome to the forum, @sunshinescout.

I was a scoutmaster and there were times when I made scout's lives a bit uncomfortable, but I did talk to them about it and it nearly always worked out. Since you work well with your scoutmaster I'd suggest you talk to him about your concerns. I suspect he's seen this before and can help you out. If he says things are going well, they probably are.

Good luck!

[qwazse]

11 hours ago, sunshinescout said:

... I feel really badly that I have to worry about this as a Scout, and the randomness/arbitrary nature of my district's standards for Eagles seems unfair.  It's added a lot of stress to my Eagle project, which I feel should be an enjoyable milestone of my scouting experience.

Welcome to the forums. When this happens to our scouts (we have is one district scouter review proposals and give feedback ... mostly very good, but sometimes directing a boy to pick a new project unnecessarily), I let the scout know that if he chooses to go with his first choice the committee will stand behind him, no matter what the esteemed scouter said. Usually the scout picks a different project, but it means a great deal that we stand behind our Life scouts.

I agree with @MattR. Talk to your SM. He might assign someone in your troop to be your Eagle project advisor and look over your proposal before it goes to the district. You want that person to be brutally honest, but open-minded.

Beyond that, councils and districts vary a lot. That's a good thing. These scouters probably at one time or another have had to propose projects in your community or, based on their jobs, submit bids for contracts or apply for grants. The way that happens varies across the country. So, you aren't going to see one-size-fits-all behavior.  But, your experience going through the process will reflect what these scouters feel it takes to get good work done in their fields.

[Eagledad]

Sometimes the district goes overboard. That is when the SM is brought in to bring balance into the situation. I wish Districts would follow the letter of the guidelines and just approve a qualified proposal, but many feel they are Eagle Project quality control for their area and set high expectations. And, like qwazse said, each district may have different expectations, so that sometimes causes conflict or confusion. Talk with your SM. 

Barry

[mashmaster]

Welcome to the Forums.

My understanding is that once the project has been approved by the unit and district to move forward, they can't come back to say it should be a different project.

Once it is complete and both the beneficiary and Scoutmaster sign off on it being complete, then the project is complete.  It needs to be very well understood between the beneficiary, Scoutmaster, and yourself about what the project is and what is complete.

I agree about talking to your Scoutmaster about working with your units Eagle Advisor.  They typically are an experienced scouter that have gone through this process before and can provide you great advice.

Good Luck on you journey!

[Owls_are_cool]

Did you start on your service project before it was approved by the district? Has it been approved by the district? 

[CynicalScouter]

14 hours ago, sunshinescout said:

In my experience, both personally and talking to other scouts, the district Scouters do not faithfully follow the requirements or the Guide to Advancement.  For example, some of them require fundraising for projects that don't need it (GTA 9.0.2.10 Fundraising Issues says otherwise),

OK, there's a ton of issues to go over here, but I want to cut/carve out one.

If there fundraising is not needed, where's the money going? To the units?

We can quibble about whether or not a EBOR is behaving or ignoring GTA, but if there's money involved and being misused, that's a whole other world.

[qwazse]

4 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said:

Did you start on your service project before it was approved by the district? Has it been approved by the district? 

@Owls_are_cool, the way I read it was that the scouts' proposal was reviewed by the district and got a "good enough."  The scout is now concerned that those dissenting opinions might bleed through however many months from now when he has his BoR.

It's actually a pretty decent life-lesson. You could convert a run-down bowling alley into the Sistine chapel, and someone's not gonna like it. How do you muscle through that opposition when you are up for an award and the opposition is sitting on the board? It's tough to say, "Respectfully, Sir, I got approval from your district on the exact spacing between God's finger and Adam's." You might want to consult your allies before the meeting.

[InquisitiveScouter]

@sunshinescout

You said you were very close to completing your project...

1.  Take all of your concerns to your Scoutmaster and Eagle Project Coach (if you have one.)  They are closest to the fray, and may have dealt with these situations before.

2.  You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook.  If you did, you should have also gotten your proposal approved by your unit, the beneficiary, and some district/council representative.  If you don't have this signature page, then you have a problem.  See #1.

3.  When your project is complete, as long as you did not deviate substantially from your proposal, you will be fine, even if you have to go through some appeals process.  As long as your unit leader and the beneficiary sign the project completion page, you will be fine.  The National office (if it has to go there, which I doubt) always sides with the Scout.  You will notice, there is no Council or District signature line on the Project Approval page  (Project Report Page C)

4.  Fundraising is never required.  If you wanted to pay for Eagle Project entirely out of your own pocket, that is just fine.

As to the leadership question, the requirement says you must "...plan, develop, and give leadership to others..."  It doesn't say anything about fundraising, and it doesn't say anything about how many others, or what their ages must be.  This is where your unit leader comes in, and why they must sign your project approval, stating  "In my opinion, this Eagle Scout service project meets Eagle Scout requirement 5, as stated on page 4 of this workbook."  Hopefully, enough other people (Scouts?) were involved that this will not be an issue.  Again, talk to your Scoutmaster.

I will tell you, as I always tell leaders and parents, "It's not about the project.  It's about the Scout."  If you planned the project, developed it, and led others to complete it, you are fine.  If someone else did any of those for you, then you did not complete your project.  Your Scoutmaster is your adult advocate if any questions do arise. 

Finally, take this advice, "Don't fight dragons that aren't there."  If your proposal is approved, and you work that proposal while leading others, you will be fine, even if someone at District or Council doesn't "like" it.  Work your proposal as approved, and all is well.

Congrats!!
 

[fred8033]

8 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Sometimes the district goes overboard.

Yep.  It happens.  I cringe every time added hoosp are explained as life lessons or helping them with a future objective.  If a scout comes asking for a proposal approval, scouters should be friendly, courteous, kind and supportive.  A pet pieve is when scouts are forced to face a Eagle project proposal BOR.  It's supposed to be a friendly discussion.  Proposal reviews are NOT a BOR that helps scouts prepare for their EBOR.  

 

8 hours ago, Eagledad said:

That is when the SM is brought in to bring balance into the situation.

Exactly.  Let your SM be  your advocate.  It's not your place to correct misdirected adults.  But if you can, congrats.  It's a valuable skill.  On the other hand, imbalances of power are best left to your SM.

 

8 hours ago, Eagledad said:

... Districts would follow the letter of the guidelines ...

They must.  But you will have to appeal up to get tings corrected.

[sunshinescout]

Thank you very much everyone for your guidance and perspective.

I thought I'd add that my scoutmaster is actually on the Eagle Board of Reviews and project reviews for the district, so I'm hesitant to bring up concerns about the district scouters to him.  I did mention their requirement for fundraising and the contradiction in the GTA, and his advice to me was to save time in getting the project approved and just do a fundraiser.  I think he might either agree with the district or not want to contradict them to a scout, which I can respect.  I ended up (very respectfully and matter of factly) expressly stating to project reviewers that I wasn't going to do a fundraiser.  Some were unhappy, but one ended up approving it.

On 1/4/2021 at 2:13 PM, CynicalScouter said:

OK, there's a ton of issues to go over here, but I want to cut/carve out one.

If there fundraising is not needed, where's the money going? To the units?

We can quibble about whether or not a EBOR is behaving or ignoring GTA, but if there's money involved and being misused, that's a whole other world.

@CynicalScouter I (and my family) ended up paying the nominal costs of the project.  I think everything should be in order.

On 1/4/2021 at 2:00 PM, Owls_are_cool said:

Did you start on your service project before it was approved by the district? Has it been approved by the district? 

@Owls_are_cool I'm sorry I was vague about that.  I filled out the project proposal in the workbook, it was approved by the district, and only then did I start work.

On 1/4/2021 at 2:13 PM, qwazse said:

@Owls_are_cool, the way I read it was that the scouts' proposal was reviewed by the district and got a "good enough."  The scout is now concerned that those dissenting opinions might bleed through however many months from now when he has his BoR.

It's actually a pretty decent life-lesson. You could convert a run-down bowling alley into the Sistine chapel, and someone's not gonna like it. How do you muscle through that opposition when you are up for an award and the opposition is sitting on the board? It's tough to say, "Respectfully, Sir, I got approval from your district on the exact spacing between God's finger and Adam's." You might want to consult your allies before the meeting.

Definitely, I think I will have to have a conversation with the beneficiary and scoutmaster to make sure they are very happy with the project.  I've also done so continually over the past couple of months, and they've said they don't have any concerns.

On 1/4/2021 at 3:45 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

@sunshinescout

You said you were very close to completing your project...

1.  Take all of your concerns to your Scoutmaster and Eagle Project Coach (if you have one.)  They are closest to the fray, and may have dealt with these situations before.

2.  You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook.  If you did, you should have also gotten your proposal approved by your unit, the beneficiary, and some district/council representative.  If you don't have this signature page, then you have a problem.  See #1.

3.  When your project is complete, as long as you did not deviate substantially from your proposal, you will be fine, even if you have to go through some appeals process.  As long as your unit leader and the beneficiary sign the project completion page, you will be fine.  The National office (if it has to go there, which I doubt) always sides with the Scout.  You will notice, there is no Council or District signature line on the Project Approval page  (Project Report Page C)

4.  Fundraising is never required.  If you wanted to pay for Eagle Project entirely out of your own pocket, that is just fine.

As to the leadership question, the requirement says you must "...plan, develop, and give leadership to others..."  It doesn't say anything about fundraising, and it doesn't say anything about how many others, or what their ages must be.  This is where your unit leader comes in, and why they must sign your project approval, stating  "In my opinion, this Eagle Scout service project meets Eagle Scout requirement 5, as stated on page 4 of this workbook."  Hopefully, enough other people (Scouts?) were involved that this will not be an issue.  Again, talk to your Scoutmaster.

I will tell you, as I always tell leaders and parents, "It's not about the project.  It's about the Scout."  If you planned the project, developed it, and led others to complete it, you are fine.  If someone else did any of those for you, then you did not complete your project.  Your Scoutmaster is your adult advocate if any questions do arise. 

Finally, take this advice, "Don't fight dragons that aren't there."  If your proposal is approved, and you work that proposal while leading others, you will be fine, even if someone at District or Council doesn't "like" it.  Work your proposal as approved, and all is well.

Congrats!!
 

@InquisitiveScouter Thank you!  I did get the proposal from the workbook approved and the signature page complete.  I've taken great care to stick to the proposal, and I've engaged younger scouts as my scoutmaster asked, and several older scouts (total about 6 scouts).  My scoutmaster seems happy with this.

I find it reassuring that National is there to help scouts.  I'm just very nervous that despite following my approved proposal, the requirements, Guide to Advancement, and my scoutmaster and beneficiary's requests I still might be denied, but I think I've been reassured that it will be okay.

On 1/4/2021 at 10:03 PM, fred8033 said:

Yep.  It happens.  I cringe every time added hoosp are explained as life lessons or helping them with a future objective.  If a scout comes asking for a proposal approval, scouters should be friendly, courteous, kind and supportive.  A pet pieve is when scouts are forced to face a Eagle project proposal BOR.  It's supposed to be a friendly discussion.  Proposal reviews are NOT a BOR that helps scouts prepare for their EBOR.  

 

Exactly.  Let your SM be  your advocate.  It's not your place to correct misdirected adults.  But if you can, congrats.  It's a valuable skill.  On the other hand, imbalances of power are best left to your SM.

 

They must.  But you will have to appeal up to get tings corrected.

@fred8033 I've only ever had success correcting (or more so getting around) adults by being very respectful and kind and appealing to their superior.  I've met many adults that don't seem to want to follow the rules or be fair, so it's a skill I'd like to develop.  I definitely don't want any dispute with the district, so I think I will just suck it up, hope for the best, and keep an appeal in my back pocket.  Some of the scouters were quite degrading toward my project proposal (making it seem like I was lazy and incompetent about my project), and I think they might have the same take when it comes time for a Board of Review.

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, sunshinescout said:

@fred8033 I've only ever had success correcting (or more so getting around) adults by being very respectful and kind and appealing to their superior.  I've met many adults that don't seem to want to follow the rules or be fair, so it's a skill I'd like to develop.  I definitely don't want any dispute with the district, so I think I will just suck it up, hope for the best, and keep an appeal in my back pocket.  Some of the scouters were quite degrading toward my project proposal (making it seem like I was lazy and incompetent about my project), and I think they might have the same take when it comes time for a Board of Review.

Well said.  And, it's a good way to handle things.  ... The key is some day in the future, you will be an adult.  At some point, you will be setting an example and/or teaching the next generation.  Everything we do teaches lessons.  ...  In this case, you learned several valuable lessons.  You developed a skill to handle bad situations.  That will be valabule.  You also learned those in power can easily abuse their power and ignore rules to fulfill their own goals.  The bigger harder lesson is to not repeat wrongs and not to treat others as we have been treated.  It's hard, but very important to change things. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

7 hours ago, sunshinescout said:

I still might be denied

Hi @sunshinescout,

An Eagle Board of Review cannot really "deny" your rank.  The can only "recommend" approval or disapproval to National.  Only the National office may decide that.  There is a specific process your EBOR must follow if, when they meet, they come to a conclusion that you did not meet the requirement, and make that recommendation.  The first step is that they must present to you IN WRITING what they believe to be the issue.  If you do not agree, you may appeal.  National prefers these matters be solved at the local level, so council should first review.  There is specific guidance for councils in GTA, but, from your posts, it sounds as though you may have read through GTA 8.0.4.0 already.

As to fundraising:

GTA 9.0.2.10 (from your OP)

"Fundraising for an Eagle Scout service project shall not be required of any candidate. Whether or not fundraising takes place is the Scout’s decision based on project needs. The BSA prefers, in fact, that Scouts choose projects that can be done at little or no cost. Fundraising—especially on a larger scale—has tax, accounting, and other legal implications, in which minors should not be involved."

My advice, should you choose to take it, is to not do a fundraiser, if it is not needed.  Stand firm.  You are automatically in the right should you choose not to do a fundraiser.

GTA 9.0.2.13 (from your OP)

"At the board of review, if an approved proposal and any subsequent effort represents planning and development that was adequate to the project, and the project was well led and carried out to the satisfaction of the unit leader and project beneficiary, only in a very rare case would rejection result. It would have to be clearly established that Eagle Scout requirement 5—as written— was not completed. Under no circumstances shall project approval at any point in the process be withheld for reasons that have nothing to do with the project."

Work through your project and get your unit leader's and beneficiary's signature on the approval page.  You will be fine.

Even if the EBOR makes some written non-recommendation, the appeals process is designed to safeguard your (and other Scouts') interests.  Maybe your case is the one that National needs to crack down on your council/district for imposing requirements that aren't there!  Maybe you will be the one who brings unfair and inappropriate practices to National's attention.

Or maybe, just maybe, you are imagining resistance that isn't there.  (Don't fight dragons that aren't there.)  Meet the issue head on IF and when it arises.

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter

[scoutldr]

I served many years on EBORs as the District rep.  I think if your project write-up clearly stated how the project was to be funded, and it didn't violate any BSA policy for fundraising, you should be good to go.  The funds were donated by family members.  It doesn't matter what the source was, as long as it didn't infringe on the Council's FOS campaign for business contributions.  Good luck, and congratulations in advance!

[elitts]

On 1/4/2021 at 10:03 PM, fred8033 said:

Yep.  It happens.  I cringe every time added hoosp are explained as life lessons or helping them with a future objective.  If a scout comes asking for a proposal approval, scouters should be friendly, courteous, kind and supportive.  A pet pieve is when scouts are forced to face a Eagle project proposal BOR.  It's supposed to be a friendly discussion.  Proposal reviews are NOT a BOR that helps scouts prepare for their EBOR. 

I suppose it depends on the proposal and the scout sometimes.  I've sat on a few project review boards where I'm sure the scout thought we were being unfair and mean.  Every once and a while you get a scout that has a proposal SO rough that there's just no help possible besides a little "hard truth" and the suggestion to come back again after a little more thinking goes into it.  I usually try and handle situations like that with questions that point out all the areas the scout hasn't even considered.  Most of the time they just say "Can I just go think about that and come back later tonight?" and of course we allow it.  But there have been a few times where the end result was just a "no".  We were polite and offered suggestions to make the projects acceptable, but I'm sure none of them felt we were supportive and kind.