Assistant Scoutmaster as Advancement Chair?

[InquisitiveScouter]

13 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

i know the solution, but do parents want a solution?

Some do...that's why we have so many Scouts in our unit

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, mashmaster said:

The reason I used to tell people in YPT training was that a 12 year old is a horrible witness.  Always have another adult at least in ear shot of a conversation with a single scout.  YPT protects both the youth and the adult.

Yes, it does...most of the time you just need to have those conversations in view of someone else, as the are not supposed to be overheard.

Once in a while, a Scout comes along who, for some reason or another, changes the words you say into something they think they heard, with a different meaning entirely.  We have one in our unit now, who must have Scoutmaster conferences with another adult listening.  It was quite eye opening to the parents that their son was hearing something vastly different than what was said, after the second adult corroborated the first adult's message.

[yknot]

2 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Sadly, at my daughter's school two years ago, there were rapes in areas of the stairwell that were out of camera view.  We can't rely on security cameras.

The reason I used to tell people in YPT training was that a 12 year old is a horrible witness.  Always have another adult at least in ear shot of a conversation with a single scout.  YPT protects both the youth and the adult.

Certainly things still happen and schools are not perfect. My point though was that scouters who compare adult ratios at camp outs in the woods to academic and sports environments are not comparing apples to apples. There are far more adults around in day to day school settings; teachers and adults are not usually taking kids off into remote locations some distance from civilization; and there is a lot more surveillance on a typical school campus than there is in the woods or at a remote camp ground, especially now in the aftermath of some of these high profile school shooter events. It took a couple years, but post Sandy Hook, all the school districts in my area hardened security to the point where there are few places on campus that are not secured or surveilled.  

[fred8033]

28 minutes ago, yknot said:

Things have changed dramatically since 2012. Why? Sandy Hook. That shooting quickly and forever changed school security and surveillance measures. Other incidents since then have contributed but the environment is completely different now and forever will be.

Same can be said for scouts.  Scouting is drastically and YPT is drastically different than what it was when most of the abuse happened.   Drastically different.

 

19 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Always have another adult at least in ear shot of a conversation with a single scout.  YPT protects both the youth and the adult.

Yep.  It's habit in our troop when one adult goes to check on things, a second adult tags along.  

 

33 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The issue isn’t liability or higher risks, the issue is more acceptance of helicopter parenting.

and helicoptering leaders.  The simple fact is we don't need to check up on our scouts as much as we think.  A favorite example is summer camp.  It's okay to walk around camp to see how things are going.  I really think it's a bad thing to assign adults to check each merit badge session to see if the scouts arrived at their session.  If the scouts ditch their session, that's their issue and they proably won't get the badge.  A friendly chat is nice to see how things are going.  But as leaders we should not hover over our scouts.  

 

 

[yknot]

Just now, fred8033 said:

Same can be said for scouts.  Scouting is drastically and YPT is drastically different than what it was when most of the abuse happened.   Drastically different.

Exactly. But this discussion arose because people were complaining about having to do things differently. 

[Eagledad]

10 hours ago, yknot said:

Exactly. But this discussion arose because people were complaining about having to do things differently. 

The discussion arose because posters were doing things so drastically different that their program can no longer achieve it's intended objectives. You even mentioned once your own sons enjoyed cubs more than the Troop. You certainly don't show respect for the program. I can only imagine you haven't observed scouts growing from their decisions because it is truly a wonderful feeling.

Someone posted a video here a few months ago of a troop that in my area resembled more of a Webelos program than troop. The adults directed the cooking, kp, and other activities. The scouts appeared totally reliant on the adults. Yep, that is a troop that would need a lot of adults to administer the program. And I didn't see scouts making decisions that would force them to evaluate the results.

I'm trying to understand what fears are causing such "dramatic" changes. What does Sandy Hook have to do with the number of adults on a campout? What can a 3rd adult do that the first two couldn't? I'm asking because I don't understand.

Barry

 

[mrjohns2]

4 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I can only imagine you haven't observed scouts growing from their decisions because it is truly a wonderful feeling.

When I felt this, when I saw this... I knew why adults volunteered so many years. To see, from a distance, a patrol "get the job done" or to see them work out there differences or plan something... it was amazing. I feel like I have to use clichés, but this is the magic. No adults, just the Scouts, doing Scouting. Again, we are there for safety and to avoid large monetary loss. Other than that, it is theirs. 

[fred8033]

24 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

When I felt this, when I saw this... I knew why adults volunteered so many years. To see, from a distance, a patrol "get the job done" or to see them work out there differences or plan something... it was amazing. I feel like I have to use clichés, but this is the magic. No adults, just the Scouts, doing Scouting. Again, we are there for safety and to avoid large monetary loss. Other than that, it is theirs. 

I volunteered for years because I could sit with another adult for hours and hours and play cribbage.     

Edited January 7, 2021 by fred8033

[Eagledad]

I actually created an adult leadership course on how to get past fears that restrict scouts from doing their activities and making decisions. Motivation to create the course come from a new troop I was asked to help. The adults  were all new and they wouldn't even let their scouts (all first year scouts) lead a flag ceremony because they believed the scouts didn't have the maturity to recite the Pledge of Elegance, Law, or oath without messing up.

The steps to get past our fears are simple really, identify the fear and then train the adults or scouts how to deal with the situation of the fear. In one class we used an example of a patrol doing a five mile hike without an adult. One participant got pretty aggravated and loud with the idea as we discussed the steps to alleviate the fears restricting the scouts from the hike.. But a couple years later he was a participant at a WB course I was staffing and he found me to say, that while he was skeptical, he tried the suggestions and they worked. 

Really, working past our fears is a process we all go through a lot. The real problem is that fear which stop us from trying to get past. Depending our our experiences of life, adults have different fears that hold them from letting the scouts mature and grow. We just have to be willing to try.

Barry

[DuctTape]

Barry,

 

Would you be willing to share that course with us? 

 

-dT

[InquisitiveScouter]

15 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I actually created an adult leadership course on how to get past fears that restrict scouts from doing their activities and making decisions. Motivation to create the course come from a new troop I was asked to help. The adults  were all new and they wouldn't even let their scouts (all first year scouts) lead a flag ceremony because they believed the scouts didn't have the maturity to recite the Pledge of Elegance, Law, or oath without messing up.

The steps to get past our fears are simple really, identify the fear and then train the adults or scouts how to deal with the situation of the fear. In one class we used an example of a patrol doing a five mile hike without an adult. One participant got pretty aggravated and loud with the idea as we discussed the steps to alleviate the fears restricting the scouts from the hike.. But a couple years later he was a participant at a WB course I was staffing and he found me to say, that while he was skeptical, he tried the suggestions and they worked. 

Really, working past our fears is a process we all go through a lot. The real problem is that fear which stop us from trying to get past. Depending our our experiences of life, adults have different fears that hold them from letting the scouts mature and grow. We just have to be willing to try.

Barry

Barry,

Was one of your sessions on "How to Bite Your Lip?"

Or, "Recite this phrase from memory, "Did you ask your Patrol Leader?""???

It is amazing how many adults are unwilling to let them struggle sometimes.

I even had a Scout show up to a trip once, and he said, "I forgot to buy the stuff we need for dinner tonight!"

Me: "Well, you'll have to figure out a solution with your Patrol Leader, or skip the meal."

His mother had a huge problem with that.  She wanted to rush off to the store and buy the items he needed.  I pulled her aside for a discussion.

1.  Does your son have a medical issue such that skipping a meal would hurt him?  No

2. Was it his responsibility to bring the items?  Yes

3.  Do you know that the grocery store is only 10 minutes from our campsite? No, but OK, I understand.

4.  Do you know that there are other patrols with food who may be able to share? Oh, OK...

5.  Do you know that I always have a few extra items for Scouts, if needed?  Oh, OK...

etc, etc, etc...

What it really came down to was that she didn't want her son to be viewed badly by the other Scouts for forgetting his responsibility.

"How else is he going to learn?"

That was about four years ago, and he is still with us, and is one of our best... he will probably be elected SPL next week

 

....Sorry...post script...They worked it out with the other Patrols who had brought enough to share...

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter

[Eagledad]

10 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Barry,

 

Would you be willing to share that course with us? 

 

-dT

That was 20 years ago on an old computer that has crashed since. But I can kind of give an outline.

I first discussed how scout growth is the result of scouts learning from their decisions. Lots and lots of decisions. 

Then I led into the problem that many adults aren't willing to let scouts make the harder lesson-learning-decisions because they are afraid of what a wrong decision will do. Adult Fears.

Then we led into how to identify exactly what causes the fear because surprisingly adults don't think through that far when they say no. Let's use the five mile hike for example, adults afraid, the scouts will get lost, so teach them how to read maps, use compass, even use a GPS. Or, even let them do the hike around town in an area they feel safe and work their way to the woods after that. Then there is the fear of a scout getting hurt. OK, teach first aid to the point of feeling they can deal with that situation. 

Of course to many a fear of letting scouts alone on an activity seems obvious. But, one scoutmaster told me he wouldn't let his SPL run a PLC meeting until he was 14. Why 14, I don't know. His fear was the meeting would be disorganized and take all day to complete. So, we discussed how to guide the scout through a meeting without adult in the room. You know the SM never thought of teaching the SPL how to use and agenda because the SM never used one himself. The SMs fears were a result of his own bad habits. We we spent some time in the handbooks where they talk about agendas and running meetings.

He was another example of how that one lesson should him how to get past other fears he dealing with in his program.

The real point of the class is to first identify the fear, then figure out what needs to be done to feel to alleviate that fear. Simple really. But adults are so used to parent reaction of saying no, they haven't developed the habit of considering the idea and asking themselves why not? If you was your adults, you will see it a lot in many aspects of the program.

That's all you are really trying to teach.

The other point I was trying make is that the habit of young scouts making challenging decisions really does create growth and maturity. Believe it or not, most adults don't really trust that reasoning. I find it harder to get adults to consider that ideal than getting them to confront their fears. To many adults, what's the point of confronting a fear if the result doesn't change the outcome. 

This is why a good SM will spend half their time working with the adults. Adults have to grow more and faster just to keep up with scout growth.

Does that help much?

Barry

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

... one scoutmaster told me he wouldn't let his SPL run a PLC meeting until he was 14. Why 14, I don't know. His fear was the meeting would be disorganized and take all day to complete.

Yeah ... That's like when you have a new troop.  The best way to start the PLC is to let the scouts choose a leader, give an example, mentor and support ... but let the starts start doing their own PLC immediately.  Constantly adjust, but get out of the scout's way and let them enjoy their program.

2020 was a hard year, but I have a few good memories.  One was my youngest son.  Him and his friends were spending hours and hours online together.  So a few times, I told him tomorrow you are out of the house ... invite your friends.  ... expected masks, six feet apart, etc ...  Told him to not come back for at least four to six hours ... .dinners is at 5pm ... him and his friends met at the junior high parking log and spent the afternoon walking the sidewalks and trails in our city ... visited the grocery story for drinks.  ... While driving, I saw them miles from our house.  From what I saw, he and his friends had a great time and they did it several more times.  ... They were safe ... They are all polite kids .... They grew a lot more during those wandering trips than sitting in our basement online. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Then I led into the problem that many adults aren't willing to let scouts make the harder lesson-learning-decisions because they are afraid of what a wrong decision will do.

How do you learn to make good decisions?  By making some bad ones and learning from your mistakes!

Or, as a good commander of mine once said..."Every truly good soldier has dents in his helmet."

Best to let them make some bad decisions now, while the consequences are small

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter

[TAHAWK]

Reminds me of: "We learn from experience, and not all experience is good."