Assistant Scoutmaster as Advancement Chair?

[TAHAWK]

41 minutes ago, yknot said:

Is your CO aware that you take 30 kids out with two adults? If something happens it's hard to defend under the legal definition of negligence and could leave you all exposed to liability because no other youth organization works that way. BSA itself no longer allows even small patrols to operate without at least two deep adult supervision what makes you think even larger groups would be OK? Relying on camp staffing to count towards numbers only relates if they are working with your unit and are in sight, not if they are randomly in residence somewhere in the general vicinity. 

Your argument seems to assume something "bad" happened?  What? Tornado?  Automobile accident?  Lightning strike?  "Lost" a child?  Attcked a choild?  Wouldn't  the facts matter to how "hard" it is to defend the lawsuit?

Two registered adults is the  BSA requirement - whatever the size of the group - unless its a Merit Badge an Counselor meeting a candidate, when   the "presence" of a second "adult" human being is the requirement.   

The "legal definition" of "negligence" is vague and subjective.  If twenty registered adiults are preent and one of them strikes a child, injuring her, will it help that the nineteen others prseent did not stop the battery?  WIll it not be claimed that the attacking adult was "negligently" allowed to have access to the child who was struck?

To what standard of alertness or attention must the additional aduklt(s) conform?

You are proposing an even more drastic change in BSA policy - a change, given the ever-increasing shortage of registered adults - that would probably signficantly reduce BSA Scout activities, even on line - perhaps to none.

Two teachers in every classroom?   

Two adults at every interview of a child?

Two adults at the counter of every store serving children?

Two LEO's in every cruiser?

Two nurses at every aid station?

Two coaches at every "skull session"? 

If we are to ignore availability, wouldn't three be even more "prudent"?   More?  

Safer yet, no adults and no Scouting.

 

 

 

 

 

[yknot]

33 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

Your argument seems to assume something "bad" happened?  What? Tornado?  Automobile accident?  Lightning strike?  "Lost" a child?  Attcked a choild?  Wouldn't  the facts matter to how "hard" it is to defend the lawsuit?

Two registered adults is the  BSA requirement - whatever the size of the group - unless its a Merit Badge an Counselor meeting a candidate, when   the "presence" of a second "adult" human being is the requirement.   

The "legal definition" of "negligence" is vague and subjective.  If twenty registered adiults are preent and one of them strikes a child, injuring her, will it help that the nineteen others prseent did not stop the battery?  WIll it not be claimed that the attacking adult was "negligently" allowed to have access to the child who was struck?

To what standard of alertness or attention must the additional aduklt(s) conform?

You are proposing an even more drastic change in BSA policy - a change, given the ever-increasing shortage of registered adults - that would probably signficantly reduce BSA Scout activities, even on line - perhaps to none.

Two teachers in every classroom?   

Two adults at every interview of a child?

Two adults at the counter of every store serving children?

Two LEO's in every cruiser?

Two nurses at every aid station?

Two coaches at every "skull session"? 

If we are to ignore availability, wouldn't three be even more "prudent"?   More?  

Safer yet, no adults and no Scouting.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow. YPT is pretty clear two adults always in BSA. Most youth activities do require two adults. I work with several worship houses in an interfaith council and all have youth protection policies that require two adults whenever children are present and the numbers of adults needed go up as the number of youth do and based on the activity. In the public educational environment, you cannot take youth on a field trip without a minimum of one adult per 3-4 children. There are some youth sports settings where a single coach with a team is OK but that is only because the field is ringed with parents and other officials. 

 

[yknot]

40 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

Your argument seems to assume something "bad" happened?  What? Tornado?  Automobile accident?  Lightning strike?  "Lost" a child?  Attcked a choild?  Wouldn't  the facts matter to how "hard" it is to defend the lawsuit?

Two registered adults is the  BSA requirement - whatever the size of the group - unless its a Merit Badge an Counselor meeting a candidate, when   the "presence" of a second "adult" human being is the requirement.   

The "legal definition" of "negligence" is vague and subjective.  If twenty registered adiults are preent and one of them strikes a child, injuring her, will it help that the nineteen others prseent did not stop the battery?  WIll it not be claimed that the attacking adult was "negligently" allowed to have access to the child who was struck?

To what standard of alertness or attention must the additional aduklt(s) conform?

You are proposing an even more drastic change in BSA policy - a change, given the ever-increasing shortage of registered adults - that would probably signficantly reduce BSA Scout activities, even on line - perhaps to none.

Two teachers in every classroom?   

Two adults at every interview of a child?

Two adults at the counter of every store serving children?

Two LEO's in every cruiser?

Two nurses at every aid station?

Two coaches at every "skull session"? 

If we are to ignore availability, wouldn't three be even more "prudent"?   More?  

Safer yet, no adults and no Scouting.

 

 

 

 

 

Additionally, I'm not proposing a change. This is pretty much how all units in my region interpret YPT requirements. There is no unit I know of within driving distance that would ever put 30 kids in the field with just two adults. It would never happen. Never. 

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

Additionally, I'm not proposing a change. This is pretty much how all units in my region interpret YPT requirements. There is no unit I know of within driving distance that would ever put 30 kids in the field with just two adults. It would never happen. Never. 

"In the field" ???  ... Most troops I know camp "mostly" at scout camps, state parks or something similar.  Camps filled with support if truely needed.  I'd agree that backwoods activities require a different level of support ... potentially.  But even then, I've seen eight scouts and three adults do a long hiking trip multiple time.  It really depends on the situation.  I've camped with 30+ scouts multiple times with just one or two other leaders.  It's not tha big of a deal.  Yeah, two does feel thin at times.  Having one or two extra is fine and nice so that you can play Hearts or able to play cribbage when one of the adult is napping.

I'm really trying to draw the distinction between a limited set of adults and 10+ adults on a camp out.  You just don't want that as the normal pattern.  It hurts the nature of the program.

This thread is really about advancement function and whether an ASM can perform much of that role.  ... I'm not sure how we changed topics ... I suspect I'm the guilty party ...

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by fred8033

[Eagledad]

7 hours ago, yknot said:

Additionally, I'm not proposing a change. This is pretty much how all units in my region interpret YPT requirements. There is no unit I know of within driving distance that would ever put 30 kids in the field with just two adults. It would never happen. Never. 

Why?

Barry

[Chadamus]

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

This thread is really about advancement function and whether an ASM can perform much of that role.  ... I'm not sure how we changed topics ... I suspect I'm the guilty party ...

 

No worries, fred8033. Discussion is always good. As InquisitiveScouter pointed out, perhaps a thread of it's own would be a more appropriate place.

[qwazse]

10 hours ago, yknot said:

... There is no unit I know of within driving distance that would ever put 30 kids in the field with just two adults. It would never happen. Never. 

I did 2 v 23 last summer camp. The new ASM and I could have easily welcomed seven more ... so long as they came with at least one first class scout. Hitting 2 v 40 pushes it.

The staff was very helpful, and kept an eye on our site when I was re-updating my BSA guard and the other adult was chaperoning our four 1st years.

That said (and somewhat back to the OP), I could have benefited from our Scoutbook expert (who is registered and trained as an ASM) on site to help me navigate some advancement questions and log sign-offs. That task took me away from camp; however the wifi was in a location where I could see my scouts crossing from one activity area to another. More importantly, I'm still in the middle of the learning curve with that thing, so I was also E-mailing him and the SM for some clarifications.

[MattR]

9 hours ago, fred8033 said:

This thread is really about advancement function and whether an ASM can perform much of that role.  ... I'm not sure how we changed topics ... I suspect I'm the guilty party ...

I can split the thread but it will require locking it since there are multiple pages of 2vs30. Do we still want to talk about Advancement chair? I'm not even sure what one does, as we've never had one.

[TAHAWK]

11 hours ago, yknot said:

Wow. YPT is pretty clear two adults always in BSA. Most youth activities do require two adults. I work with several worship houses in an interfaith council and all have youth protection policies that require two adults whenever children are present and the numbers of adults needed go up as the number of youth do and based on the activity. In the public educational environment, you cannot take youth on a field trip without a minimum of one adult per 3-4 children. There are some youth sports settings where a single coach with a team is OK but that is only because the field is ringed with parents and other officials. 

 

YPT seemed very clear when the "two registered adults for every Scout activity" rule was announced.  When I specifically asked National if it were true that, as a Merit Badge Counselor, I need to have a second registered Scouter present when I met with a candidate, I was told any second adult "present" would do,>  This was  a change from the prior requirement only that the MBC not be "alone" with a candidate.  I then asked my council the same question and, is so often the case, they referred me to National.

BSA G2A on line now reads (note "Notwithstanding"):

"7.0.3.1 Counseling Sessions and Certifying Completion

A youth member must not meet one-on-one with an adult. Sessions with counselors must take place in accordance with the Guide to Safe Scouting (www.scouting.org/ health-and-safety/gss/gss01). Notwithstanding the minimum leader requirements, age- and programappropriate supervision must always be provided. Youth should be encouraged to bring a buddy, such as a friend, parent, guardian, brother, sister, other relative— or, better yet, another Scout working on the same badge. If merit badge counseling includes any web-based interaction, it must be conducted in accordance with Recommended Merit Badge Process 1. The Scout develops an interest in a merit badge and may begin working on the requirements. 2. The Scout and unit leader discuss the Scout’s interest in the merit badge. 3. The unit leader signs a blue card and provides the Scout with at least one counselor contact. 4. The Scout contacts the counselor. 5. The counselor considers any work toward requirements completed prior to the initial discussion with the unit leader. 6. The Scout, the Scout’s buddy, and the counselor meet (often several times). 7. The Scout finishes the requirements. 8. The counselor approves completion. 9. The Scout returns the signed blue card to the unit leader, who signs the applicant record section of the blue card. 10. The unit leader gives the Scout the applicant record. 11. The unit reports completion of the merit badge. 12. The Scout receives the merit badge. GUIDE TO ADVANCEMENT | 49 BSA’s social media guidelines (www.scouting.org/ training/youth-protection). For example, always copy one or more authorized adults on email messages between counselors and Scouts."

SOURCE: Boy Scouts of America, Guide to Advancement, at pp. 48-49 (2019)

BSA also now says on its YPT website:

 

"Youth Protection and Barriers to Abuse FAQs

Additional FAQ’s: General Health and Safety,  Annual Health and Medical Record, Shooting Sports program, Family Scouting Information

Adult Supervision

Q:  The Barriers to Abuse say that there must be two registered adults present for all Scouting activities and meetings.  Does that include merit badge counseling? Fund-raising events?

A. Yes. However, the parent or legal guardian of the Scout may serve as the second adult. This parent or legal guardian does not have to be a registered leader."

SOURCE:  Boy Scouts of America https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/yp-faqs/

BSA frequently has trouble with clarity and/or consistency.

 

 

[Eagledad]

I was thinking about this,  we averaged 40 scouts at campouts with about 10 adults. That number of adults was more a requirement for transpiration than attending to the scouts. And I would guess, that excepting for assembly, the scouts' would struggle to think of a time when they saw more than two adults at the same time. Patrols are, or supposed to be, self supporting. Our adults camp at least 100 feet or more from the patrols, which is almost out of sight in the woods. So our scouts are use to feeling independent from the adults.  Maybe times are changing, I haven't camped with the troop in few years. But, if the patrols requires any adults for reasons other than YPT, the program might be missing something.

Barry

[fred8033]

26 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I was thinking about this,  we averaged 40 scouts at campouts with about 10 adults. That number of adults was more a requirement for transpiration than attending to the scouts. And I would guess, that excepting for assembly, the scouts' would struggle to think of a time when they saw more than two adults at the same time. Patrols are, or supposed to be, self supporting. Our adults camp at least 100 feet or more from the patrols, which is almost out of sight in the woods. So our scouts are use to feeling independent from the adults.  Maybe times are changing, I haven't camped with the troop in few years. But, if the patrols requires any adults for reasons other than YPT, the program might be missing something.

Barry

Maybe we don't have enough trees. 

[Chadamus]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

I can split the thread but it will require locking it since there are multiple pages of 2vs30.

Thanks MattR, but we might as well let it go.

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Do we still want to talk about Advancement chair?

🤷‍♂️

[yknot]

18 hours ago, fred8033 said:

"In the field" ???  ... Most troops I know camp "mostly" at scout camps, state parks or something similar.  Camps filled with support if truely needed.  I'd agree that backwoods activities require a different level of support ... potentially.  But even then, I've seen eight scouts and three adults do a long hiking trip multiple time.  It really depends on the situation.  I've camped with 30+ scouts multiple times with just one or two other leaders.  It's not tha big of a deal.  Yeah, two does feel thin at times.  Having one or two extra is fine and nice so that you can play Hearts or able to play cribbage when one of the adult is napping.

I'm really trying to draw the distinction between a limited set of adults and 10+ adults on a camp out.  You just don't want that as the normal pattern.  It hurts the nature of the program.

This thread is really about advancement function and whether an ASM can perform much of that role.  ... I'm not sure how we changed topics ... I suspect I'm the guilty party ...

 

I didn't literally mean off  "in the field" somewhere I meant the usual places -- summer camp and campgrounds. Over the past 15 or so years, we have rotated among about four scout camps in adjoining councils for summer camp. All require an adult ratio of at least one adult per 10 scouts at a minimum. So 30 scouts would require 3 to 4 adults. Our units wouldn't go with less than 4 because you can't maintain YPT if something comes up. Camp staff or rangers might be around but they are usually out of sight. I'm also surprised this doesn't come up on your camping permits at non scout campgrounds. Maybe it's regional but around here they will not accept so many juveniles without guaranteeing a certain ratio of adults to scouts when you fill out the application.

As always, I'm amazed at the differences between units and regions. We take liberal views of a lot of BSA policies but not adult supervision. Maybe we have too many lawyers around here.  I would also add our units are pretty much scout led.  Adults are required -- but just "in case".

[mrjohns2]

10 minutes ago, yknot said:

We take liberal views of a lot of BSA policies but not adult supervision.

This isn’t a case of “liberal view” of BSA policy. There is no direction on a ratio required. 30 would be a lot, but it isn’t against policy. It would be hard to get 30 Scouts somewhere without 5 or 6 or more drivers. So, it is only theoretical. But, it is mot against the policy. Maybe against practicality and good sense, but again, there is no required ratio for Troops. 

[yknot]

12 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

This isn’t a case of “liberal view” of BSA policy. There is no direction on a ratio required. 30 would be a lot, but it isn’t against policy. It would be hard to get 30 Scouts somewhere without 5 or 6 or more drivers. So, it is only theoretical. But, it is mot against the policy. Maybe against practicality and good sense, but again, there is no required ratio for Troops. 

Okayyyy... but if the litmus test for YPT is two deep at all times no matter what then, being scouts, we have to "Be Prepared" to effect that, no? Also, the online Tour Plan has been gone for awhile but for a long time that stipulated 1:10 adults to scouts on any outing.