"Boy Run" and scout mischief

[acco40]

I agree BW but sometimes ....

 

What if the misbehaving Scout is the SM or SAs son? Sorry to say, I had a minor "incident" with my son on our last outing. We both know that sometimes it is difficult for him to see me as SM and not as "dad" and for me to see him as a Star Scout and not as "son." When he exhibited behavior that I thought was inappropriate (and directed at me) I took him out of ear shot and gave him a "lecture." Not a safety issue and maybe debatable with "interfering with the delivery of the program." Also, to send him home would have meant I left too. Usually, I let another SA handle the situation but not this time.

 

Not really looking for answers, but something to ponder.

[Bob White]

Since it was not a safety or program issue there would be no need for sending him home. Consider rather than the stern leacture that you would talk with him as you would any other scout.

 

When I said to send a scout home understand that I would never take him, or have another leader take him. We let the parents know from day one that if your son's actions meet either of these two criteria you will be called and you are to come get him. We don't care how far, how long, or what else you are doing.

 

Had a parent drive over a thousand miles to get a boy who could not behave like a scout. I didn't lose one minute of sleep over it.

[GabeTheRockStar]

You guys have truly helped a lot. This really is a great thread. Mark, thanks for bringing the topic back into the focus I wanted to discuss: the committee. I look at the committee as a group whose role should be minimal, as do all of you. So when you take into account their role as parents, it leaves us questioning how creative we can be with carrots and sticks before we hand it over to the parents individually. As best I can tell, it seems reasonable that their role should be as follows. SM, deciding that an incident is the last straw for one boy, decides to ask him to leave. Before he does this, he runs it by the committee. Other than that, I can't see why the committee has to be involved.

 

I totally agree about allowing the PLs, and then the SPL and ASPL, deal with behavioral incidents under SM supervision. And usually an SM's word is enough to slow a scout down, especially on trips. (As an aside, BW, your policy on parents and pickup from camp is perfect. I like your style. No boy wants to go home, and no boy wants his parents mad at him for it.)

 

An addendum then is this: what about "ADD" cases and other such anomalies? We had one boy who was incorrigable, except sometimes when his meds were working to calm the little livewire down. It was hard on everyone because if we held him to a regular standard, he would not have lasted a month in the troop. I do believe they asked him to leave after a year of disrespect and general insanity on outings and troop and patrol meetings.

 

Any thoughts on how to deal with kids who may need a longer lead than others?

 

Also, considering carrots and sticks, do y'all have any stories about strategies that worked for you? Motivation can be the best way around a problem in a troop.

[EagleInKY]

A couple of other quick comments. I will go directly to the parents before taking it to the troop committee. I believe most parents would like to have a shot of handling the situation from home before it becomes a topic of discussion at next month's committee meeting. I have had to do this, and it's a difficult situation. I had a mom go to tears because she was dealing with the same problems with him at home. There are two positive outcomes that could come from this step. One, the boy - when he learns that the SM is meeting with his parents regarding his behavior - may straighten things out. Second, you may learn some ideas from the parents on how to handle their son. This happened in the case I referenced.

 

Gabe - One of the big carrots for the SM is the "demonstrate Scout Oath and Law" requirement for each rank. I have used this, and will continue to use it, as a great motivator. The boys want to advance. If this is getting in the way, they'll try to straighten up so they can do so. The only down side is that they will sometimes slip back after they've been signed off.

[Eagledad]

>>I will go directly to the parents before taking it to the troop committee. I believe most parents would like to have a shot of handling the situation from home before it becomes a topic of discussion at next month's committee meeting.

[scoutldr]

Gabe said, "An addendum then is this: what about "ADD" cases and other such anomalies? We had one boy who was incorrigable, except sometimes when his meds were working to calm the little livewire down. It was hard on everyone because if we held him to a regular standard, he would not have lasted a month in the troop. I do believe they asked him to leave after a year of disrespect and general insanity on outings and troop and patrol meetings."

 

Consider this: To hold ADD kids to a different, more lenient standard is not fair to anyone. Kids and parents need to know what the standard is...for everyone. I firmly believe that kids will rise to the occasion once they figure out that there is no other option...and that mom and dad will not be around to pick up the slack or make excuses for them. When they get into college and the work force, no one will care that they "just can't focus" and "that's just the way their brain is wired." What counts will be results...and the scout needs to figure out how to get there... with or without medication. Too harsh? I don't think so. I have adult ADD and one of my sons has it. You have to overcome and adapt to the world...the world doesn't have to adapt to you.

 

[sst3rd]

It's been a while, but this thread is indeed directly Scouting related. When ADD was starting to pop up as why a Scout was misbehaving and that this Scout should be given lots of slack and otherwise, I felt common sense should prevail.

I've told Patrol Leaders, who have had difficult Scouts in their Patrols, that as soon as he starts to disrupt a Patrol activity, maybe give one warning. After that, the PL was to release him to the SPL or an adult leader. Getting the disruptive Scout out of the Scouting activity, sends a powerful message.

I have also received several books to read, from parents, about their son's diagnosis, so I (the SM) would understand his outragious behavior. I've always given the books back unread. I simply state to the Scout's parents, that the Scout must behave within an appropriate level (with or without medication), or I would be irresponsible in allowing this Scout to participate and possibly hurt himself and/or others.

With a boy run Troop, our youth leaders need clear guidelines to work from. They do not need to sit and argue with the offending Scout about whatever the problem is, thus ruining their Patrol program. Remove the Scout, and let an adult review the situation outside the Patrol activity.

 

YIS

sst3rd

 

[Joni4TA]

I sort of took this whole post as a learning exercise...

 

My husband is the SM in our son's Troop. I am a Committee Member. We're both avtice on the District Staff as well.

 

It's pretty darn difficult at times to remember I am not "MOM" once we throw on our Official Uniforms. It's hard not to give him "the look" (you know the one parental look your folks could give you that either meant *You aint gonna live to see tomorrow if ya keep that up*) when he's acting l

[Joni4TA]

I sort of took this whole post as a learning exercise...

 

My husband is the SM in our son's Troop. I am a Committee Member. We're both active on the District Staff as well.

 

It's pretty darn difficult at times to remember I am not "MOM" once we throw on our Official Uniforms. It's hard not to give him "the look" (you know the one parental look your folks could give you that meant *You aint gonna live to see tomorrow if ya keep that up*) when he's acting like a donkey.

 

Sometimes I need to do exactly as was suggested - nudge the PL or SPL to broaden his vision. Usually it works. If not, there is always "THE LOOK" (This message has been edited by Joni4TA)

[ScoutNut]

"An addendum then is this: what about "ADD" cases and other such anomalies? We had one boy who was incorrigable, except sometimes when his meds were working to calm the little livewire down. It was hard on everyone because if we held him to a regular standard, he would not have lasted a month in the troop. I do believe they asked him to leave after a year of disrespect and general insanity on outings and troop and patrol meetings."

 

There is no need to "hold ADD kids to a different, more lenient standard". What you do have to remember is that ADHD/ADD is a disability, it is not simply bad behavior. It is also not something that they can easily control on their own.

 

Parents should be upfront about their child's disablity when he enters a Unit, especially if he has behaviour issues. The leaders and the parents should sit down and discuss ways to help the scout get the most out of Scouting. That includes the Unit's responses to behaviour, possible medication changes to enable the Scout to have better control later in the day, and ways the Unit can make adjustments or accommodations to help the Scout.

 

Refusing to read a book or learn about your Scouts is unproductive. If you know why a behaviour occurs it is much easier to deal with that behaviour. Many councils have advisory committees for youth with disabilities and special needs. Check with your council to see if they have resources for you.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Scoutnut,

 

I don't disagree with your comment about understanding the behavior. However, there are a number of parents that use that to excuse their son's actions. We have a scout in our troop who is ADD. He used to be in our pack as well. I swore that we would not go to the same troop that he did because of his behavior. Guess what, we ended up in the same troop. This boy has been allowed to get away with murder at home and has always had his behavior excused because of his disability. He has meds, but his mom doesn't like to give them to him because he "just isn't himself" when he is one them. I've seen him off of them (95% of the time) and I've seen him on them. When he is off of them, he is a holy terror. When he is on them, he acts like any other boy in the troop. I think she has just grown accustomed to his behavior while the rest of us see it as bad. I won't bore you with the list of things he has done. It is long. Just this past weekend on the campout, he yelled at his mother in front of everyone foe her to "get her freakin' hands off of him". The SM decided that one more outburst would get him an off schedule BOR to the committee since his talks with him was getting little to no results. He showed up to our meeting this week on his meds and was focused, actually thoughtful, contributed to the meeting and fairly well behaved overall. I don't see what his mom gains by leaving him off his meds so he can be "himself" when "himself" is always a discipline problem and a disruption? The other boys have a right to do their scouting without constant disruptions by this boy. It is unfair for this mom to subject everyone else to his antics because she wants to excuse his actions and let him be "a boy being a boy".

[sst3rd]

ScoutNut,

 

I've been a Scout leader for over 30 years. I already was aware of ADHD/ADD, and other associated disabilities. I didn't need a book shoved in my face to justify a boy's consistent, mean, and disruptive behavior. Parents also have a habit of not bringing up these disabilities until after a pattern of misbehavior has gotten their Scout in trouble. Then his behavior has to be defended.

As I stated before, on or off of medication, a Scout needs to be responsible enough not to disrupt is fellow Scouts and/or the program. When he can't (or won't), he is excused from the meeting, the hike, the camping trip, the fundraiser, the meeting; for the day, week, month, or forever. The Troop and Patrol programs must be the top priority. That's why the guys became Scouts.

 

YIS,

sst3rd

[Bob White]

The reply link on my private messaging is not working so I will respond here to a message I recieved. The quote is from the Scoutmaster Lader Specific Training Syllabus.

 

 

[GabeTheRockStar]

Thank you all again for your phenomenal contributions.

 

EagleInKY, thanks for your comment about advancement as a "carrot." I spent two years as a troop guide. In that time I had more leverage with the scouts than most boy leaders did. (That's when I got my nickname from some of the younger scouts, "Gabe the Rock Star.") Anyway, you and EagleDad both have good points about keeping the parents informed individually, about both good behavior and bad. It occurred to me while I was reading your posts that boy leaders can be involved directly in this process, especially the troop guide. It was quite often my role as a guide to let the parents know how the scout were doing, so the parents could congratulate and reward their boys for their scouting triumphs.

And in the case of correcting bad behavior, parents' confidence and enthusiasm for the program is heightened when leaders show confidence in the parents, before a BOR or the whole Committee.

 

On to the issue of ADD/ADHD. I am an adult ADD patient. I have also seen, in the story I told before, the damage a particularly strong case of it can do to a troop or patrol. For this reason I completely sympathize with both sides of this discussion.

 

Scoutldr, sst3rd and SR540Beaver have a good point. The program must go on. Being that scouting is such a wonderful "training ground for adulthood," ADD scouts and their parents should expect and hope for the same standard, to a great extent. It is also unfair to everyone involved to allow one scout to run amuck because he "can't help it."

 

ScoutNut is so right though, when he points out that scouts with a disability are not just misbehaving. They have a very real obstacle to overcome that most scouts do not. Scout troops can't embrace the full inclusiveness of BSA if they do not offer accomodation to the disabled. This, of course, is why I agree with ScoutNut that SM's should discuss it with parents early on, if at all possible. This way the SM can decide whether or not the scout will be able to be a part of the troop, based on the individual boy and the individual troop.

 

sst3rd said: "...a Scout needs to be responsible enough not to disrupt [his] fellow Scouts and/or the program. When he can't (or won't), he is excused ... for the day, week, month, or forever. The Troop and Patrol programs must be the top priority."

 

I agree. Other scouts should not have to pay because the parents and leaders can't or won't accomodate a disability. Let me explain. I used to be an algebra tutor. I had one so-called ADD student who was extremely poorly behaved, and extremely disrespectful of my time. He would refuse to acknowledge that I had given him homework, and refuse to pay attention. His mother had babied him, did not believe in meds, and just basically wanted me to pass him so he could have his high school math requirement done. In retrospect, he either had a disability that was irresponsibly handled, or he was just desperately spoiled, or both. She did me and him a disservice by refusing to properly accomodate his disability. It made me unable to properly accomodate it. Regardless, it is a situation I should not have been asked to deal with, nor should scout leaders, neither adults nor boys.

 

As an SM I would discuss everything with parents. Usually one can tell if the parents are being responsible or not. If so, the parents and SM can work together to help the scout be a productive contributer to the program. If not, I would strongly consider turning them away.

 

As for meds, I understand why some people avoid them. There are side effects. Even if they don't make him take them at home, or let him self medicate, ask to be in charge of his meds at camps, and educate yourself on his dosages, etc. If necessary, make it clear that scouts should be on medication for meetings, for everyone's sake, if they will otherwise be out of control. Clinically disruptive scouts can't be allowed, I agree. This is, to my knowledge, the best way for an ADD scout to be "responsible enough not to disrupt his fellow Scouts."

 

This all begs the question of "Boy Run" and disabilities. I guess Boy leaders should understand that there is a disability, not just misbehavior. They should defer to SMs on treatment if the boy is not responding to leadership when other boys are. SMs should assess whether the issue is with the leadership, or just the disability.

 

Thoughts?

[OldGreyEagle]

And to think the only Gabe I knew was Gabe Kaplan of welcome back Kotter...

 

Aanyway, have you checked the Scouts With Disabilities Forum? It has a thread on ADD already started