InquisitiveScouter Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 27 minutes ago, ParkMan said: It does make we wonder though - what are the sensitive issues that people fear in the space of diversity, equality, and inclusion? Asked and answered? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) 37 minutes ago, ParkMan said: It does make we wonder though - what are the sensitive issues that people fear in the space of diversity, equality, and inclusion? Does race exist? Duke ... https://scienceandsociety.duke.edu/does-race-exist/#:~:text=In a landmark paper based,between two different population subgroups. National Geographic ... https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-genetics-science-africa/ Is it right to tax current/future children to pay for the sins of the past? Should the U.S. pay reparations? How to know who receives money? Policing ? Defund? Is it acceptable to call all cops bastards? Should cops benefit from being assumed innocent? Is it right to fire a police officer before the formal investigation? When is it acceptable for a police officer to discharge his gun? What can an officer do if someone is not following instructions? How many police officers are killed each year? Homeless? Are they a result of how society has discriminated against these people? Why do we have all these homeless encampments popping up everywhere for the last five years? Are they safe? STORY: Our troop had a lawyer volunteer to teach family life. They lawyer had appropriate related experience. Later during down time, the scouts were just chatting and they started talking about girl friends, social media, consent, problems / cost of girl friends. ... Then their conversation migrated to it would be better to legalize prostitution. The MBC and I were just on the side just relaxing. Either the MBC joined the conversation or the scouts pulled him in because he was a lawyer. ... It was interesting watching the MBC guide the discussion on legalizing prostitution. ... Later I told him I was glad he guided the discussion because I'm sure I would have fumbled. And, he did a great job. 1 hour ago, ParkMan said: I fear that people will simply not be able to let youth explore this on their own. It's like the political version of "adult led". This topic is simply one that adults think that they need to protect, guide, shelter youth on this subject. Here I simply disagree. MBs are defined as adults providing their expertise to the scout. It's inherent in this being a MB. My issue is our youth get this 24/7/365. During the school day. During Sunday school. In their music and entertainment. From their families. ... A badge in this will be a joke to the scouts. If we add this badge, it's probably time to add a Sex Education badge. ... Many of our scouts (past and present) father children while being a scout. Let's add a badge on Parenting (diapers, feeding, etc). ... While we at it, probably a new Disease Prevention badge that can talk about immunization and how to stop viruses. ... Perhaps the citizenship badges need more discussions on how the government is funded the best way to fund the government. Flat tax, progressive tax, payroll tax. My big fear is what happened yesterday. I chatted with a good friend and he offered to be my son's DE&I MB counselor. Now this person has mentored my son with other badges and I'm fine with it. BUT, his views are located somewhere off the left coast of California. I want him no where near my son talking politics. That's the issue. I'm betting he would not want me as the MB counselor for his sons. Edited December 22, 2020 by fred8033 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 20 minutes ago, qwazse said: How is it that counselors "injecting their own biases" is a problem here, but not for any of the other MBs? As I mentioned in other threads, MBC's are, by definition, selected because they have a "bias" in favor of the skill being taught. We literally want our youth to meet people outside of scouting so that they discover what and how they can learn stuff form folks who are not their SMs. MBCs are rarely "selected". Rather, warm bodies are often found willing to teach the MB. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnmule20 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 21 minutes ago, qwazse said: How is it that counselors "injecting their own biases" is a problem here, but not for any of the other MBs? Good question. qwazse, Injecting your bias on how to do a lashing or how to gather and use tender is much different, I hope you would agree, than injecting your bias on sexual orientation or gender identity. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitiveScouter Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 12 minutes ago, fred8033 said: Does race exist? Thanks, @fred8033 the best line in the first paper is "But perhaps holding onto old-world beliefs of biological race is implicitly supporting the ideas that make possible the manifestations of “societal race” " The only way to stop the "manifestations of societal race" is to do away with the notion that such a thing exists at all. So the true definition of racism is "any belief that race exists." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, qwazse said: How is it that counselors "injecting their own biases" is a problem here, but not for any of the other MBs? As I mentioned in other threads, MBC's are, by definition, selected because they have a "bias" in favor of the skill being taught. We literally want our youth to meet people outside of scouting so that they discover what and how they can learn stuff form folks who are not their SMs. There's a reason why at the Cub Scout level the Duty to God related adventures and at Scouts, BSA the Family Life merit badge explicitly provide for the PARENTS to certify/sign off. Because while I would be hard pressed to find a religious or moral objection to using two half hitches vs. a taut line hitch, I absolutely know and can identify families and major religious denominations in the U.S. that religious or moral objections to how "inclusive" we as a national are regarding sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity. Case in point: I honestly have no idea how a unit with a Catholic CO can work with this merit badge given that the MBC will have to condemn the Church's views on same sex marriage and the role of women in the Church as not being "inclusive". Edited December 22, 2020 by CynicalScouter 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkMan Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Thank you for the very well thought out reply. This is useful. 34 minutes ago, fred8033 said: Does race exist? Duke ... https://scienceandsociety.duke.edu/does-race-exist/#:~:text=In a landmark paper based,between two different population subgroups. National Geographic ... https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-genetics-science-africa/ Is it right to tax current/future children to pay for the sins of the past? Should the U.S. pay reparations? How to know who receives money? Policing ? Defund? Is it acceptable to call all cops bastards? Should cops benefit from being assumed innocent? Is it right to fire a police officer before the formal investigation? When is it acceptable for a police officer to discharge his gun? What can an officer do if someone is not following instructions? How many police officers are killed each year? Homeless? Are they a result of how society has discriminated against these people? Why do we have all these homeless encampments popping up everywhere for the last five years? Are they safe? I'm following you here. From what I read here, you are more concerned with kids hearing about the politics surrounding diversity, equality, and inclusion. Two honest questions: 1. Is it fair for me to infer that you are not concerned with discussions about inclusion and equality itself? 2. Why does your child engaging in a 2-4 hour discussion about these issues concern you? 39 minutes ago, fred8033 said: MBs are defined as adults providing their expertise to the scout. It's inherent in this being a MB. If we frame the merit badge correctly, then it should not be a session to teach political ideologies. It should, instead, be a vehicle for kids to learn more about the world and explore their own thoughts. There are other examples of this in Scouting such as the religious components. In Scouting we have requirements and award relating to religion. Scouting is very clear to not push a particular religion, but instead to advocate for the idea that youth should be thinking of their own beliefs in God. This seems to have a parallel. 43 minutes ago, fred8033 said: My issue is our youth get this 24/7/365. During the school day. During Sunday school. In their music and entertainment. From their families. ... A badge in this will be a joke to the scouts. This seems to me to be the best reason not to do it. It also seems to be why it doesn't deserve the level of angst it is getting. If kids are hearing about this everywhere else, why not have a discussion in a Scouting context too? Is something said with few sessions with a MB counselor really going to have a bigger impact than what they hear in school, in church, on YouTube, etc...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitiveScouter Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, ParkMan said: In Scouting we have requirements and award relating to religion. No, we don't. Scouting simply recognizes awards sponsored by various faiths. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitiveScouter Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ParkMan said: Scouting is very clear to not push a particular religion, but instead to advocate for the idea that youth should be thinking of their own beliefs in God. This seems to have a parallel. Now there's an idea! How about a DE&I Award. Same requirements, and NOT REQUIRED for Eagle Scout. Also, no requirements in the early rank structure. Edited December 22, 2020 by InquisitiveScouter corrected... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkMan Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said: No, we don't. Scouting simply recognizes awards sponsored by various faiths. But there is: In the Webelos level there is a Duty to God adventure. At the Bear level there is a Fellowship and Duty to God adventure At the Wolf level there is a Duty to God Footsteps adventure At the Tiger level there is Tiger Circles: Duty to Good At the Arrow of Light level there is Arrow of Light Adventure: Duty to God in Action It's well known that at Eagle Boards candidates often are asked how they demonstrate their Duty to God. Further, they are required to submit a letter of recommendation from a faith leader or parent that supports that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkMan Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said: Asked and answered? What I believe I keep reading is lots of concern that someone might have a discussion with kids that has a political aspect to it. I'm fine to agree to disagree in the ability of people to not get too political in a Scouting context. But, even if someone were to get political with your kids - what is the primary concern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitiveScouter Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Just now, ParkMan said: But there is: In the Webelos level there is a Duty to God adventure. At the Bear level there is a Fellowship and Duty to God adventure At the Wolf level there is a Duty to God Footsteps adventure At the Tiger level there is Tiger Circles: Duty to Good At the Arrow of Light level there is Arrow of Light Adventure: Duty to God in Action It's well known that at Eagle Boards candidates often are asked how they demonstrate their Duty to God. Further, they are required to submit a letter of recommendation from a faith leader or parent that supports that. Yes, but there are no wrong answers to these questions. A Scout and her parents define her duty to God, and you cannot contradict her in any way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkMan Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said: Yes, but there are no wrong answers to these questions. A Scout and her parents define her duty to God, and you cannot contradict her in any way. And to someone who doesn't want their kid discussing religion it's no different. The DE&I requirements don't state what the answer is, it states the questions to asks and topics to consider. A Scout can define the answers however they want to. How is that any different? Edited December 22, 2020 by ParkMan grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitiveScouter Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 And Duty to God is one of the Ideals of Scouting. Ideals – The ideals of Scouting are spelled out in the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, the Scout motto, and the Scout slogan. The Scout measures themselves against these ideals and continually tries to improve. The goals are high, and, as they reach for them, they have some control over what and who they become. BSA has not changed the ideals. This Merit Badge attempts to. And, since earning the MB is not required of Scouts anyway, unless they wish to attain Eagle Scout, I'm more interested in the rank requirements they are talking about, which haven't been released yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnmule20 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 This may have been posted before. If so, my apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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