P.C. ... Will scouting follow sports

[fred8033]

Today, Cleveland Indians will no-longer use the name Indians.  Washington is no-longer the Red Skins.  

Will this quickly follow into scouting?   OA themes?   Local camps named with Indian terms and tribe names?  

I expect next summer to arrive at summer camp and everything (camp included) will be renamed.   My comfort is the camp is the place, activities and the camp fire late at night.  

Edited December 14, 2020 by fred8033

[InquisitiveScouter]

9 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Will this quickly follow into scouting?

Yes, you can expect that soon.  Remember when they hopped on the bandwagon after George Floyd's death back in June?

https://scoutingwire.org/bsas-commitment-to-act-against-racial-injustice/

• Reviewing every element of our programs to ensure diversity and inclusion are engrained at every level for participants and volunteers by applying a standard that promotes racial equality and denounces racism, discrimination, inequality and injustice.
• Requiring diversity and inclusion training for all BSA employees starting July 1 and taking immediate action toward introducing a version for volunteers in the coming months.
• Conducting a review of property names, events and insignia, in partnership with local councils, to build on and enhance the organization’s nearly 30-year ban on use of the Confederate flag and to ensure that symbols of oppression are not in use today or in the future.

[David CO]

11 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I expect next summer to arrive at summer camp and everything (camp included) will be renamed.   

True.  It will be renamed FOR SALE.

 

[fred8033]

6 hours ago, David CO said:

True.  It will be renamed FOR SALE.

I actually think our council may be okay as we went thru something similar several years ago.  we'll have to see though.

[Eagle94-A1]

It has already started. OA can no longer do Native American themen AOL or Cross Over Ceremonies.  Ceremony teams currently have 3 options for Pre Ordeal, Ordeal, Brotherhood,  and Vigil Ceremonies: regalia approved by the Nation you researched, uniform, or all black shirt and pants. And there is talk that they are in the process of changing things in 2021.

[Eagle1993]

I went to a college with a NA mascot.  Before school started, I attended an orientation day.  The student leaders brought us to the football stadium and there were NA protestors outside.  We walked past and inside the stadium the student leaders said that our mascot was fully supported by most NAs  and only a small group protests.  They said that our NA symbol (not mascot) performed a dance and in a costume that was authentic.  I was disappointed by the protestors and believed in the university.

Fast forward to half time at the first football game I attended.  Out comes our mascot.  I looked at his regalia and was a bit suspicious.  Then his dance started and I was shocked.  It looked nothing like anything I had seen.  After the game, I did some research and found the regalia as not native to our area.  The dance was not authentic at all.  Many native groups were not fans and I had been lied to.

As a boy scout, I earned Indian Lore MB, I was in OA and went to pow wows.  Had I not had that experience, I probably wouldn't have had the background to understand NA history.  I'm not arguing that BSA is 100% correct and I agree they should relook at OA lodges, ceremonies, MB content.  That said, I would not support eliminating all of it.  I think teaching NA history and rituals is important.  

I would suggest BSA work with NA organizations and tribes.  If a tribe works with an OA lodge on a ceremony, that would be approved.  NA groups should help update our Indian Lore MB.  The benefit to NA groups is a wider group that understands the history and culture of NA tribes.

Again, I know BSA isn't perfect, but it was the only organization/group I was part of that helped provide exposure to NA culture.  I would love to see that improve and not eliminated. 

[Cleveland Rocks]

Our OA lodge just voted last weekend to change the totem used on our lodge flaps and other media from a side-profile Native American in full headdress to a black squirrel.

Our district (which had a Native American name) just merged with another and the contest conducted to come up with a new name had explicit instructions that Native American names or references could not be used in the new name.

[InquisitiveScouter]

13 minutes ago, Cleveland Rocks said:

Our OA lodge just voted last weekend to change the totem used on our lodge flaps and other media from a side-profile Native American in full headdress to a black squirrel.

Our district (which had a Native American name) just merged with another and the contest conducted to come up with a new name had explicit instructions that Native American names or references could not be used in the new name.

You will see this happening more frequently in the future.

[qwazse]

@Cleveland Rocks, if it's not too late, I grant your district permission to adopt anything from my Syrian heritage for a name/mascot. It would tickle my family pink if a council had an Alleppo or Homs district!

[fred8033]

On 12/15/2020 at 8:45 AM, Eagle1993 said:

I would suggest BSA work with NA organizations and tribes.  If a tribe works with an OA lodge on a ceremony, that would be approved.  NA groups should help update our Indian Lore MB.  The benefit to NA groups is a wider group that understands the history and culture of NA tribes.

Again, I know BSA isn't perfect, but it was the only organization/group I was part of that helped provide exposure to NA culture.  I would love to see that improve and not eliminated. 

BSA has worked with NA in the past.  The problem is there will always be protesters and those that interpret things differently.  It's time to stop using another culture for our purposes.   IMHO, we'll be worse off because of it as NA awareness and knowledge will drop.  Sadly, our scouts first experience with NA culture will be at a local casino.  

In  many ways, today's world is much more puritanical than the past and can't really talk about the hard stuff. 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by fred8033

[Eagle94-A1]

8 hours ago, fred8033 said:

BSA has worked with NA in the past.  The problem is there will always be protesters and those that interpret things differently.  It's time to stop using another culture for our purposes.   IMHO, we'll be worse off because of it as NA awareness and knowledge will drop.  Sadly, our scouts first experience with NA culture will be at a local casino.  

In  many ways, today's world is much more puritanical than the past and can't really talk about the hard stuff. 

Here's the deal, even if you use your own culture, people will protest. Best example of that is the  Zulu Social Aid and Pleasure Club of New Orleans.  Formed in 1909 by members of several all black aid societies and clubs, it is a historically African American crew. Whites were not allowed to join until circa 1993/94 when the city of New Orleans created laws  that mandated integrations in the krewes that paraded in city limits... Traditionally their members wear grass skirts and black face. Blackface was used because at the time of club's creation, it was illegal for blacks to wear masks, but not wear makeup. Members of the club include former black mayors of New Orleans, black businessmen, politicians, sports figures, and other entertainers. One famous member and Zulu King was Louis Armstrong. Their charity work not only supports members in need, but also Toys for Tots, college scholarships,  the local school system, and the NOPD's Night Out Against Crime.

Yet people who do not care about that historically black krewe do not care about it's customs and traditions and are demanding change. in 2019 CNN even did an article on the controversy. https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/16/us/zulu-new-orleans-blackface/index.html

[Cleveland Rocks]

23 hours ago, qwazse said:

@Cleveland Rocks, if it's not too late, I grant your district permission to adopt anything from my Syrian heritage for a name/mascot. It would tickle my family pink if a council had an Alleppo or Homs district!

This has been in the works for many months. The realignment takes place January 1, and all the names are all selected (although I only know the name of our new district, not the others).

Our council is going from 8 districts to 5. Three of the 8 districts have Native American names (one is actually not a real name, but a combination of the first letters of 9 NA tribes that used to live in the area). A fourth is/was named Arrowhead, and while that's not an NA name per se, it has obvious NA references.  A fifth is/was named (just recently in 2018!) after a local landmark that was used by NA tribes in the area. So, there were lots of NA names/references they are retiring in a week and a half.

[yknot]

1 hour ago, Cleveland Rocks said:

This has been in the works for many months. The realignment takes place January 1, and all the names are all selected (although I only know the name of our new district, not the others).

Our council is going from 8 districts to 5. Three of the 8 districts have Native American names (one is actually not a real name, but a combination of the first letters of 9 NA tribes that used to live in the area). A fourth is/was named Arrowhead, and while that's not an NA name per se, it has obvious NA references.  A fifth is/was named (just recently in 2018!) after a local landmark that was used by NA tribes in the area. So, there were lots of NA names/references they are retiring in a week and a half.

I think that's kind of sad because unless the names were established in some kind of annoying way -- the made up name would seem to fall into that category to me -- it's just losing history. In the Northeast, almost every other place name has an indigenous origin. I don't think it's offensive to keep those names in order to remember who was here first. I do think some of the NA hookum hokkum aspects of scouting need to go, no matter how many NA locals sign off on it. I'm not Canadian but I've spent a lot of time there and I like how they frame this issue as First Nations because it seems accurate. Although from what I hear that also has some controversy.  

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

... -- it's just losing history. ...

That's my view.  Even if used inaccurately or loosely or just wrong, it helps promote history.  Even when used wrong, it raises awareness and people begin to learn more and even recognize the wrong use was wrong.  

It's one reason I hate seeing art and statues and monuments taken down.  It's hiding history.  

Example:  Recently a Christopher Columbus statue as taken down by protesters.  When I think about Christopher Columbus, it brings many thoughts.  Good and bad.  Taking the statue down reduces awareness for future generations.  

[yknot]

4 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

That's my view.  Even if used inaccurately or loosely or just wrong, it helps promote history.  Even when used wrong, it raises awareness and people begin to learn more and even recognize the wrong use was wrong.  

It's one reason I hate seeing art and statues and monuments taken down.  It's hiding history.  

Example:  Recently a Christopher Columbus statue as taken down by protesters.  When I think about Christopher Columbus, it brings many thoughts.  Good and bad.  Taking the statue down reduces awareness for future generations.  

I am sensitive to people's feelings -- I have friends who don't want their children to even know American slavery existed because they are concerned it will warp their budding self esteem and I can see that -- but on the other hand I believe in history in all it's warts and beauty. I believe it's contextual. I believe it's living -- so that a name that meant one thing for one group centuries ago now means something else for other groups today and that needs to be acknowledged too and not just wiped out. We have a lot of veterans who went through military bases with names that have been found to have negative connotations but that wasn't their or their family's connection to them and their personal experiences were very powerful. I don't believe history should be erased or hidden. All these statues, all these names. all these places aren't any one person's or group's history, they are all of ours. I think we have a duty to look, to ponder, and to try and understand.  Some things may be so egregious that they absolutely need to come down, but other things maybe need to stay until cooler and calmer heads can assess their historical value. While I don't want to see statues come down, I am all in favor of more statues. We have so little public art any more. Let's just keep telling the stories, including the new ones we find, instead of bringing down those that are problematic.