Is the BSA trying to "put itself to sleep"?

[CynicalScouter]

9 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

The BSA can come up with more rules and requirements then one person can keep track of and I guess those people think that the volunteers are stupid, lack common sense,  or just have trouble thinking.  YPT is a requirement but there should be a system in place that will allow for the timely completion of that requirement.  It would not surprise me if they started charging a fee for YPT.  I wish they would just stop adding things and fix what they have.

Hundreds of lawsuits and thousands/millions in compensation due to injuries and abuse would indicate that volunteers need additional training.

Again, you see to simply hate Youth Protection Training. Why?

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Hundreds of lawsuits and thousands/millions in compensation due to injuries and abuse would indicate that volunteers need additional training.

You need to look at the bulk of those lawsuits.  They happened as far back as 1937. This was before Mandatory Reporting Laws. California circa 1968 was the first, and then it only applied to medical personnel. Youth group volunteers would not become mandatory reporters until the 1980s to 1990s depending upon jurisdiction.

Prior to that time, the law required the victims to report it. If BSA reported it without the support of the victim, or more specifically the victim's parents, then the BSA would be legally liable for slander and defamation of character. BSA, as well as every school and youth organization at the time, had their hands tied.

 

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Again, you see to simply hate Youth Protection Training. Why?

 Me personally I think YPT is extremely important. So you cannot say I hate it. I know  several victims, and had to deal with and report YP violations. My problem with YPT is the following the online format. I honestly believe that YPT is so important, it needs to be in a class with certified instructors. Watching videos is fine, but there needs to be discussion as well. And you can read elsewhere about online connectivity issues many volunteers in my neck of the woods have.

 

[skeptic]

One possible avenue of MB counselor qualification might take off on what was common when I was a scout.  Most teachers were automatically considered to be qualified counselors, if they chose to do it.  Some really were not at the level needed, but they community mostly viewed them as "trustworthy and honest", so that was fine.  There were many very qualified counselors that spent in depth time working with scouts, and those were likely some of the incidences that bring the stories of life work and so on.  The insane liability issues has been discussed ad infinitum, and unless the tort system is completely rebuilt in this country, it will only get worse (an opinion).  In the meantime, credentialled and licensed experts might be proactively approached to become proper counselors, having been vetted already by their profession, but still needing to do it again with BSA.  The point is that many might be amenable with the proper approach.  Some MB's should be absolutely required to have heavily vetted counselors, ones that have the knowledge of the subject at a level that is not simply cursory.  Our educational systems, as most of us know, have many soft spots.  A good example is my own California credential, Clear, Single Subject, K-12 + continuing educ, in "Social Science; with Reading addended.  My BA is in Geography from UCR, and my teaching credential trough CSULB in the mid 1970's.  I student taught Geography for 7th grade, and World History for 9th, as well as Reading remediation, 7-9.  Yet my credential initially did not include the Reading, which cost me one of the few jobs available in 1975.  Yet, while I obviously was a step up for Reading, that same Credential allowed me to teach "any" Social Science, including Poli-Sci, which I never took even a beginning class in, and other peripheral Social Sciences that I only had cursory courses in.  

The point of this ramble is that our systems continue to expect often the impossible from those willing to take it on, but then penalize them for mistakes.  More importantly, the general misperceptions in our society of "responsibility" is badly skewed by society itself, always looking for scapegoats, rather than valid accountability.  

Still, we who persevere can still do our utmost to assure qualified people work on MB's, paying attention to the "too easy passing" and putting the Trustworth onus back on the Scout.  We are still the gatekeepers, and if we try to do our jobs, fairly and with open eyes, most issues can be dealt with.  No amount of rules on paper or in computer files takes our responsibility away.  If we choose to be mentors, then we need to do it as best we can within our own honor systems.

[CynicalScouter]

52 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 Me personally I think YPT is extremely important. So you cannot say I hate it. I know  several victims, and had to deal with and report YP violations. My problem with YPT is the following the online format. I honestly believe that YPT is so important, it needs to be in a class with certified instructors. Watching videos is fine, but there needs to be discussion as well. And you can read elsewhere about online connectivity issues many volunteers in my neck of the woods have.

 

Ok, so there's two things:

1) Those who are objecting to YPT because it "ends the patrol method" or some how denigrates/dilutes scouting from its glory days. Into this I would include those who object to YPT at all and those who object to how it is enforced.

To those who object to YPT at all, I would simply say "read the room" or in this case "read the legal landscape". There is no way BSA can function without having that YPT program in place. And EVERY single aspect is derived from some lawsuit. AI discussed it here, but basically National and Councils were successfully sued on claims that they failed to adequately train and adequately supervise. As I read through Guide to Safe Scouting and read over in particular the Oregon case, I realize that the YPT program is being written by a) psychological experts in abuse and b) lawyers.

2) Those who are objecting to how YPT is being delivered.

I agree the way YPT is delivered with the problems with the IT is bad, I will say, however, that mandating in-person training would prove difficult. I know the Catholic Bishops require in-person Virtus (some dioceses were granting waivers due to COVID, but that was the exception).

It's hard enough to get volunteers to take the training as it is (online for 70 minutes). I know some council who were offering YPT zoom sessions (gets you that interactivity) but that was due to COVID. Not sure how long that lasts post-COVID.

[David CO]

I don't see any point in having in-person YPT sessions.  It is a one-sided conversation.  There is no discussion.  

[SSScout]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

I don't see any point in having in-person YPT sessions.  It is a one-sided conversation.  There is no discussion.  

Well whose fault is that?   If one is "in person,"  that would seem to indicate that a hand can be raised and a question or clarification asked .  The Instructor has three choices:  "Here is the answer...",  OR   "That's a good question, but I don't know, I'll find out and get back to you".  OR ... " Well, what do you all think? How would you handle this?"     EDGE and all that. 

Make your "In Person" instructor earn her/his pay.  

[Eagle94-A1]

49 minutes ago, David CO said:

I don't see any point in having in-person YPT sessions.  It is a one-sided conversation.  There is no discussion.  

When I have taught it, there has been Q&A, discussions, etc. We want people informed. We want people asking questions. We want people to get more out of it than just watching the videos.

[David CO]

50 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Well whose fault is that?   

It is definitely BSA's fault.   

[David CO]

25 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

When I have taught it, there has been Q&A, discussions, etc. We want people informed. We want people asking questions. We want people to get more out of it than just watching the videos.

I don't think anyone really gets anything out of it.  YPT is just a matter of jumping through hoops and checking off boxes.  

[Mrjeff]

I for one have no idea what the truth is.  People who serve on the national level of the BSA are omniscient,  omnipresent,  and omnirediculous.  Try to have a conversation with one and immediately you realise that you will not get a straight answer that isn't cloaked in double talk.  I for one am fed up with this b%[! $÷!+.  I have invested a couple of years and a few dollars in support of this thing just to find out that it really is a disorganized circus that doesn't even know what it's various areas are doing.  I really don't care what happens to "National" because there will always be kids gathering up and hiking in the woods, camping out, swimming in ponds and going fishing.  My word, they actually have a training for those who want to go fishing!  The relationship between scouting and their sponsors is changing, the chartering organizations are supposed to pay the BSA for the privilege of sponsoring a boy scout troop that according to the BSA, they don't own anyway.  Really, what's going on?  Why is this information so secret? What exactly is the relationship between the "National Kingdom of the Boy Scouts of America"  and the kid who just wants to go camping?  It would be grand if the CEO would arrange one of the famous webinars and let people know the truth.  Has anyone in the "surf or peasant class" tried to make contact with the Texas Palace recently?  Give it a try and see what happens.  But on the same note the ruling class keeps demanding that the peasants pay greater and greater amounts of silver to remain under in the kingdom.     Hmmmm.......just like EbenezerScrooge and Tom Wilkins? 

[yknot]

I think BSA needs to stop relying on infrequent Bryan on Scouting blogs to kinda sorta clarify unclear YPT issues. I think the online training module needs to be condensed and redone for higher impact. I think some kind of regular communication on YPT issues needs to come out of BSA. There are a lot of things that come up that BSA could educate on or use to reinforce YPT more than take this test and you're done.  And, of course, fix the tech issues.

There are times that YPT seems to defy common sense such as when you see a leader bolt out of a meeting of 30 kids because they suddenly realize they are going to be the only adult in the room for 20 seconds. On the other hand, I don't ever want to hear about another case of abuse in scouts ever again.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

41 minutes ago, yknot said:

I think BSA needs to stop relying on infrequent Bryan on Scouting blogs to kinda sorta clarify unclear YPT issues.

Our previous COR is a law professor.  When I asked him why he thought BSA policies are often ambiguous, he said they most likely WANT some ambiguity, because it protects them in court.  That is, if a case ever arises under a particular policy point, the lawyers for National will be able to argue whatever interpretation suits their interests best.

And don't bother reaching out to National for any policy clarifications.  If you use some email account not tied to your BSA profile (to try to maintain some anonymity), you will be ignored.  If you can be identified, you will be reported to your SE.  And, National will defer to your SE to interpret any policies that are ambiguous, anyway.  So, just work any policy issues through your SE.  And if you don't get a good answer from the SE, live with it...or be labeled a troublemaker of some kind, especially if you are not up on your FOS donation.

BSA is only really worried about the money.  They have gone down the YPT route because of fiscal reasons, not for some sort of altruistic desire to protect kids.  If they weren't facing massive lawsuits, they wouldn't have acted.

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by InquisitiveScouter

[Mrjeff]

I don't think that anyone objects to having an educational system for safeguarding the young people who are involved in scouting.  Thank you for providing an expert opinion on the motivs of the BSA.  I am certenly no professor of law but I did work in the system for 40 years and did pick up a few things along the way. I agree that the motives of the "Most Hign snd Roya1 Scourers" need to realise that the peasant class are not stupid and can indeed think for themselves.  BSA is not transparent on any level and is really a business that is failing miserably.   Many of the experienced and dedicated scouters were forced to accept charges rhat they did not agree with based on decisions made by some committee.  So rather then conform thew simply walked away and took their kids with them.  There weren't enough other people to make up that loss which should have sent up red flags, but was apparently ignored and signaled the begining of a major decline.  Ina an attempt so slow the descent they enacted a whole bunch of rules and requirements 5hat are ineffective or unrealistic.  YPT is just one example.  Aside from not being effective it just makes people mad when "it just don't work".  I don't hate YPT but if it's going to be required then fix it and quit hiding behind malarkey,  bolderdash, and b@]] $&[+.

[David CO]

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

 

BSA is only really worried about the money.  They have gone down the YPT route because of fiscal reasons, not for some sort of altruistic desire to protect kids.  If they weren't facing massive lawsuits, they wouldn't have acted.

 

I believe that's true.  It's all about the money.  

 

[SSScout]

On 12/14/2020 at 8:51 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

BSA is only really worried about the money.  They have gone down the YPT route because of fiscal reasons, not for some sort of altruistic desire to protect kids.  If they weren't facing massive lawsuits, they wouldn't have acted.

 

If it wasn't before, it certainly is now.   

The Troop of my yoooth did just about everything to make things cheap and affordable.  We made our tents (plastic grommeted tarps), some cook sets (#10 cans etc.)  . Now, of course, us kids had very little idea what the parents/adults did for us other than drive the car and help with other stuff (money?, How to hold a saw or hatchet? ) I never HEARD of a "District Executive" or "Charter"  until I started getting called "Mr. SSScout".   by my Scoutson's buddies.   MBCounselor?   My Music/Bugling was my school Band teacher.  I had to call the Council office to get a MBCfor some MBs.  My Aviation MB was 30 some miles away, dad drove me there twice. Now, just about any MB can be had by somebody in the Troop.  

YPT?   I have no idea if there was ANY type of such requirement back in the 1950s, 60s, 70s,,,,   It was never on the Scout's radar then, that stuff was the adult's concern.   Now, and rightfully so, it is everyone's concern, from Lion Cub on up to Eagle and beyond....