Is the BSA trying to "put itself to sleep"?

[CynicalScouter]

1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Please do not think I am attacking you. Rather I want information. What I have been told and taught over the years is being contradicted, and i want the truth. I have had issues with the BSA saying one thing, and doing something else in the past. And it is getting frustrating.

I don't take offense, I'm confused as well with some of the same questions you have. I have NO idea how you can register and NOT be YPT.

As for off the books, this really was about merit badge counselors in particular from what I was told and I personally experienced with working with MBCs in my council.

1) Scoutbook USED to (until a month or two ago) allow any unit to make someone a merit badge counselor. Now that Scoutbook will direct sync with Scoutnet, that won't happen anymore after March 2021.

2) There was also the practice of just allowing anyone to be a MBC. This really came down to parents who wanted to be a MBC but were put off by having to do the online training.

[DuctTape]

ugh. the entire merit badge counselor process has been a dumpster fire for a while.

There is zero attempt to determine whether an adult is in any way shape or form qualified to counsel scouts in a badge. Having an adult sign up because "we need a counselor for xyz" yet the adult has zero experience in the topic.

And allowing scouts to be counselors at camp... 

[yknot]

 

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

2. Are you not supposed to be notified when YPT via email is about to expire? That is what I have been told, although I have been told a lot about BSA's IT structure that I am still waiting on. When I teach the live YPT, I add my name to the list for renewal, so I do not know. 

Do you mean the email reminders? I get them. I started getting them in August for an October renewal. However, I can't seem to access the training. 

[ParkMan]

So much of this is simply the result of too much historical legacy.  registering without YPT, merit badge counselor lists not being accessible.  So much of this could be cleaned up with a small, streamlined online system.

[Eagle94-A1]

Yes the MBC  system is screwed up on a variety of levels.

First and foremost is that MBC is a district/council POR with the MBC having the option to limit to a unit. Units should NOT be having folks in their system a

Second if you had a working advancement committee, they should be the ones tacking down the MBCs, making sure they are registered, keeping accurate lists, etc It was only when my wife was adding a MB with council that she discovered she was not registered again. Also they are the ones that are the  to make sure folks have the credentials to do the MB instead of  anyone with a pulse.

 Third, BSA;s IT systems have a history of being useless. Look at all the problems currently going on. Add to the fact that some areas of the country do nothave reliable internet, and you got units who won't or cannot use BSA's systems.

[ParkMan]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Yes the MBC  system is screwed up on a variety of levels.

First and foremost is that MBC is a district/council POR with the MBC having the option to limit to a unit. Units should NOT be having folks in their system a

Second if you had a working advancement committee, they should be the ones tacking down the MBCs, making sure they are registered, keeping accurate lists, etc It was only when my wife was adding a MB with council that she discovered she was not registered again. Also they are the ones that are the  to make sure folks have the credentials to do the MB instead of  anyone with a pulse.

 Third, BSA;s IT systems have a history of being useless. Look at all the problems currently going on. Add to the fact that some areas of the country do nothave reliable internet, and you got units who won't or cannot use BSA's systems.

I'd be up for a simple registration database.  Any unit can sign anyone up as a MBC.  They go into the database, and any Scouter in the district can see the list and contact them.  Checks and balances are done through things like YPT, background checks, and completion of training for the position.

The district committee may choose to do some work to recruit more or to encourage those whose registration is about to lapse to continue - but I think they days of volunteers maintaining lists can be behind us.  

I don't doubt that the BSA's IT systems are weak.  As a volunteer I'm happy to communicate my needs and hope that they'll come around to eventually sorting it out.

[Eagle94-A1]

Sadly I think you are right.

On of the duties of an advancement committee is to "See to an effective merit badge program administered at a council or district level that functions according to national procedures and recruits, approves, trains, and makes known sufficient counselors to meet the needs of the council." (emphasis added) But summer camps started the process of of degradation by allowing non-MBCs to teach. MBUs further the degradation. We are now at the point of online MBUs, and parents asking for and MBC to contact them for their child. 

[qwazse]

There’s a bitter truth that we must recognize: The MBC concept was not designed to involve registration with the BSA. Counselors were ideally the best qualified people in your community for a given subject — not necessarily scouters or ever scouts. They way it was supposed to work is the DC would meet someone, ask if it would be alright if every now and then a scoutmaster would send a boy or two their way to learn about their hobby or profession, shake hands, and that would be it. The point was to teach scouts that they could master all kinds of really cool stuff by talking to perfect strangers.

Registering MBCs, background search, national training including ensuring current YPT ... all of that is a ten year old retrofit. And it kinda teaches boys a different concept — that they can only learn really cool stuff by talking to thoroughly vetted strangers. Well, guess what, folks? That’s just not true. There are perfect strangers outside of BSA from whom our youth are currently learning stuff just fine. So, if the system is a mess, it’s because BSA had to impose rules that the system was not built to enforce.

The belief that with a little more streamlined database management, all these outstanding teachers in our community will fall in line is a complete and utter farce.

[Mrjeff]

Wow, I had a feeling that my post would stir the pot and I guess that I was right.   Cynical Scouter appeared to do disagree and then jumped right back into the area of liability, which in itself has little to do with the safety and well being of children.  There's an old saying that statistics lie and liars use statistics.  I'm just not a believer in the accuracy of statistics.   Does anyone really think that an online YPT course is going to stop child molestation,  or that taking a virtual class is going to safeguard kids at camp?  The whole thing smells to me that the BSA is throwing the volunteers to the wolves.  Mr. Scrooge touches Tiny Tim inappropriately while on a scout trip.  Oh no, who can we blame so that the BSA is free from liability. Well we know that Scoutmaster Cratchett has been trained in youth protection and can PROVE  IT because he has passed a test on the subject.  Soooo sue Mr. CRATCHETT because he has been trained in youth protection.  Or my dear child Perfect was hit by a falling tree limb while on a scout trip.  Who can we blame?  Let's blame Mr. Badguy who is the volunteer camp administrator because he inspected the camp and signed a piece of paper saying that the camping area was a safe and secure place for Perfect to go camping,  soooooo.....it must be his fault so we can sue Mr. Badguy.  Wow thats great because the BSA is shielded from responsibility.  As for the Order of the Arrow pushing virtual activities as a temporary fix,  well thats hogwash because outside activities are still considered safe if you follow a few simple rules.  To say this is only temporary is a misnomer because once something is removed it is very difficult to restart. I reiterat that it appears that the BSA is trying to put a volunteer between anything that could go wrong and the BSA, and it has more to do with responsibility,  liability and legality then the safety and welfare of the children.  I would just like the truth.  

 

[Mrjeff]

Oh,  this whole idea of having every volunteer complete Youth Protection Training and if you don't you can't register.  Fine and dandy, good idea, way to go.........well, rather then impose more rules, restrictions, and training classes, how about fixing the YPT training so that it records the completion of the course. I'm quite sure that many will reply "Well, I didn't have any trouble" but there are many that willing to just forget about it because they have much trouble with it, have completed it more then once, and still can't print a certificate or get their ticket punched.  Congratulations to the BSA for encouraging membership, training and growth.  It's broke and needs fixing.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

...how about fixing the YPT training so that it records the completion of the course. I'm quite sure that many will reply "Well, I didn't have any trouble" but there are many that willing to just forget about it because they have much trouble with it, have completed it more then once, and still can't print a certificate or get their ticket punched.  Congratulations to the BSA for encouraging membership, training and growth.  It's broke and needs fixing.

You are NOT the only one with this issue. My wife did YPT 3 times one day to get the certificate to finally show up. That was 4.5 hours of her life wasted. And we are lucky, we are in a small town with highspeed internet. That is another reason why the live class my district does is popular.

And I agree, a lot of people do not see the issues with BSA IT systems. They say I am not tech savvy, etc. Yet I did tech support with my old job, and do minor tech support with the new one.

 

[Mrjeff]

The BSA can come up with more rules and requirements then one person can keep track of and I guess those people think that the volunteers are stupid, lack common sense,  or just have trouble thinking.  YPT is a requirement but there should be a system in place that will allow for the timely completion of that requirement.  It would not surprise me if they started charging a fee for YPT.  I wish they would just stop adding things and fix what they have.

[David CO]

6 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Mr. Scrooge touches Tiny Tim inappropriately while on a scout trip.  Oh no, who can we blame so that the BSA is free from liability. Well we know that Scoutmaster Cratchett has been trained in youth protection and can PROVE  IT because he has passed a test on the subject.  Soooo sue Mr. CRATCHETT because he has been trained in youth protection.  

I really liked how you added a seasonal touch to your argument.  But we all know that Jacob Marley has been dead these past 7 years, and he can't defend himself from accusations of child abuse.  He is the one who will be accused.  Scrooge is a cantankerous old skinflint, but he is no pedophile.   That doesn't matter though, because he was partners with Jacob Marley.  The entire business will be sold to pay off the lawsuit.

 

[yknot]

BSA undoubtedly has major issues with the care and feeding of volunteers, training and tech support just being a couple of them. The parts you can't blame BSA for are the inexorable and widespread changes in liability issues over the past few decades. Liability issues are not just driving BSA's policies but those of virtually every government, business, nonprofit, or community organization in the United States. It has become an ever escalating game of gotcha that is increasingly pervasive in every area of life.  BSA has been reactive rather than proactive, largely due to having very entrenched, incestuous leadership with a history of organizational arrogance. As a result, we kind of bumped along in a bubble for awhile while the rest of the world was adapting to this new paradigm. The abuse scandals and other high profile liability cases abruptly burst that bubble. BSA is aggressively trying to protect itself from claims with all these measures, which are largely being driven by insurers seeking to avoid settlement of claims by proving negligence, just as they are doing in this bankruptcy.  Almost every legal document you sign or contract you enter into has so many clauses designed to push liability off on the other party. I don't know where it's going, but it's going to be very hard for organizations like scouting that offer an activity with higher than average risks to the public to continue to operate. At some point, it will be impossible to get volunteers unless the BSA pays for additional insurance to cover volunteers for such inadvertent personal negligence incidences as described in another post.

 

[CynicalScouter]

12 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Does anyone really think that an online YPT course is going to stop child molestation,  or that taking a virtual class is going to safeguard kids at camp?...The whole thing smells to me that the BSA is throwing the volunteers to the wolves. ...I would just like the truth.  

The point is that adults now know they have to report. And again, the point behind these lawsuits was that BSA failed on this. So the YPT training is for both: to teach adults what they should be doing on the health/safety/welfare front and  to ensure BSA doesn't get sued into the ground.

It seems you've already decided what the "Truth" is and no one is going to persuade you otherwise. Ok then, nice chatting with you.