Significant Cultural Changes are Coming Soon

[Cburkhardt]

A catastrophic number of claims were filed against Scouting for child abuse.  A catastrophic number of people claim they were damaged for life as a result of what happened, much of which was abusive touching.  Continuing business as usual is not the right response.  Shifting the burden to a child to stop what he knows is “bad touching” by an adult would not be effective.  Under such circumstances it would not be dystopian  to end all adult touching of children in our programs (with exceptions for emergencies).  We must stop, absolutely, the potential for this type of abuse and a “no-touch” policy should not be out of the question.  It would make things very easy to understand and would remove the opportunity for abusers to engage in or “explain away” grooming activity involving touching:  “I was just showing where the pressure points are”, “I was inspecting the Scout for ticks” or “I was just rubbing the Scout’s sore muscle.”  Sorry to mention these sick examples, but that is what happened.  

Suppose a junior high school suddenly had 50 abuse claims filed against it for alleged child abuse involving molestation by several of its staff over a number of years.  The school board and parents would not continue business as usual and an extraordinary remedy would be quickly instituted (perhaps a no-touch” rule).  Such action would not be regarded as inappropriate.  It would be welcomed by the parents, students and staff members seeking to protect children and restore a good image to the school.

Incidentally, I am not on a “no-touch” advocacy campaign.  I played this out an example of how some culture fundamentals of Scouting in the United States will need to evolve rapidly if Scouting is to survive as a movement.  We need to decide what is fundamental and unchangeable and what is not.  Touching children is not fundamental to what we do.

[tnmule20]

And then there is this.

https://www.wbay.com/2020/12/09/green-bay-teen-is-areas-first-female-eagle-scout/

Ava is a member of the national inaugural class of female Eagle Scouts. That class will be named in February.  In addition to that honor, Ava is the recipient of the Gold Award from Girl Scouts of the USA.  “Having both awards as a female now places Van Straten in an even more elite group nationally,” reads a statement on her accomplishments.

Males do not have this opportunity.

Cultural changes indeed.

Edited December 9, 2020 by tnmule20

[David CO]

13 minutes ago, tnmule20 said:

 

Males do not have this opportunity.

 

Nor would we want to.

[yknot]

24 minutes ago, David CO said:

Been there.  Done that.  

I suppose then that your boys never have nocturnal emissions.  My boys have this occur at the usual rate (about 3.5% of nights).  

Does that come up for you much though as a leader issue? Never did for me other than maybe a random eww... 

 

[David CO]

1 minute ago, yknot said:

Does that come up for you much though as a leader issue? Never did for me other than maybe a random eww... 

 

Yep.  I was their Health teacher.  They're pretty comfortable talking to me.

[David CO]

Did we lose the edit button?  

[yknot]

Just now, David CO said:

Yep.  I was their Health teacher.  They're pretty comfortable talking to me.

Well that makes perfect sense, but that's something that is pretty individual to you. It's not really an argument against allowing two female leaders for boy dens.

 

[MattR]

6 minutes ago, David CO said:

Did we lose the edit button?  

Try the ellipses in the top right corner, it works for me.

[yknot]

3 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

“Professionals, National, Councils, etc.”

There is great discussion of these details elsewhere on the site.  As a matter of cultural change though, I believe some commenters are not yet internalizing what is coming.  “National” will be different from the current BSA version of “National”.  National might very well continue as the same formal corporate entity if we successfully get through the Chapter 11. It might largely be a shell that manages the IP, supply services and whatever is required to be done at a national scale.  The field presence of the new “National” will be a trace of its earlier composition, and almost all volunteer.   “Council” will vary from place to place, but professionally may be skeletal versions of their former selves – mainly providing a smaller number of unit-serving executives.  They will morph into mostly volunteer-dominated entities. 

 

I think this is going to be the heart of the problem. There are no signs that there is any kind of volunteer groundswell to support even a skeletal level of organized scouting. There are a lot of highly committed individuals, some even in pockets, around the country that will attempt to run local programs. However, I think liability and PR issues are going to make even that very difficult post bankruptcy. Things will survive for a few years, but long term it is probably not viable. What has been leaked out of the Churchill documents is very disappointing because so far there has been nothing innovative. I really think BSA has to stop trying to save itself and refocus instead on saving scouting. We have a Congressional charter. We envy 4-H, which is partially supported by the Department of Agriculture and run under its auspices. Why not try for a similar structure under the National Park Service. Everything we do with the exception of Duty to God components would fit well under the NPS. They already run scouting programs. 

 

 

[tnmule20]

37 minutes ago, David CO said:

Nor would we want to.

Just saying.

I have to admit that, “Having both awards as a female now places Van Straten in an even more elite group nationally”, bothers me just a smidge. 

 

[Cburkhardt]

Excellent ideas.  This is what I am getting at.  Many things will be wiped away an a new operation and set of practices will emerge.  Scouting will not simply emerge as the same, but smaller, movement.

[Cburkhardt]

The girls in our Troop despise the braggarts on Eagle.  They are taking it slow and doing everything correctly.  I can’t but help thinking some of this is encouraged by media looking at king for “The first X” stories.

[RememberSchiff]

2 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

A catastrophic number of claims were filed against Scouting for child abuse.  A catastrophic number of people claim they were damaged for life as a result of what happened, much of which was abusive touching.  Continuing business as usual is not the right response.  Shifting the burden to a child to stop what he knows is “bad touching” by an adult would not be effective.  Under such circumstances it would not be dystopian  to end all adult touching of children in our programs (with exceptions for emergencies).  We must stop, absolutely, the potential for this type of abuse and a “no-touch” policy should not be out of the question...

 We need to decide what is fundamental and unchangeable and what is not.  Touching children is not fundamental to what we do.

 

A large number of lawsuits are filed against drunk drivers for personal liability. Should a blanket no driving policy be applied to all adults? Is the problem driving or the drunk driver?

Touching children is not fundamental to what we do?  Touching is often part of the Show  in teaching skills which require a certain grip or body position such as wrapping a bandage, holding a leg for splinting, whittling with a knife, drawing a bow, shooting a rifle. Form and technique. 

No high-five or a pat on the back from an adult leader? All positive feedback will be just verbal?

Would you tell a parent no touching their child in Scouting...well unless it is an emergency? Good luck with Family Scouting.

Perhaps just drop the scout handshake and declare a joint health and cultural change victory.

My $0.02,

Edited December 9, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[David CO]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

Well that makes perfect sense, but that's something that is pretty individual to you. 

I agree.  That's why I dislike these mandates from national.  Units need the flexibility to take advantage of the unique abilities of each of their scouters.

[David CO]

22 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

 

Would you tell a parent no touching their child in Scouting...well unless it is an emergency? Good luck with Family Scouting.

 

In every place where I've seen these no-touch policies, they are very unevenly enforced.  Usually they are enforced against the men, but not the women.  I've seen women get away with doing stuff that would get a man fired.