Significant Cultural Changes are Coming Soon

[Eagledad]

5 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

 

I think you are both saying similar things and I concur with both.

We are on opposite spectrums of how we view the BSA. The posts balance those emotions.

Barry

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

1) Segregated councils/units: Since early on Boy Scouts of America (national) allowed for segregated units and even outright segregated Councils. National looked the other way and/or simply allowed those "separate but equal" Councils to exist until they self-integrated in the 1970s.  ... Reflected society.  1954's Brown v Board started integration, but society was and often still is very divided.   I'm not familiar with segregated councils, but it sounds like society.  Slow moving groups like BSA often are 10 years behind social change.  I'm definitely not proud of that past and I wish BSA did not have segregated councils, but I won't downgrade BSA because of it. 

2) Homosexuality and adult leaders:  ... QUESTION: What was the "nonpolitical" solution that BSA should have taken?  ... BSA should have said that BSA focuses on the program of scouting and explicitly left leader vetting and selection to the charter partner.  ... From the beginning this should have been their policy especially as some of their charter partners already had different values.  ... This is like large anti-protests coming out against groups with unfavorable views.   Then bad things happen.  ...  De-escalation is often best.  

 

 

[SSScout]

Well let's see what the score board shows.  

Categories:   US Constitution:  All men created equal . . .  Equal treatment before the Law . . . 3/5ths compromise?

Sermon on the Mount:  "Christianity"  actually following Jesus' example?   Even He did not have a "golden rule" that was called that. 

Q'ran:   All are brothers (and sisters?) under God/Allah, if I read things right....

Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Adopted by ALL the United Nations in 1948 :  All people, young or old, no matter the place or circumstance of birth,  should be treated ,? how?

The Scout Promise and Scout Law . . .

Need I go on? 

It is almost (almost)  never the fault of our ideals .  The fault is in the child  choosing poor parents.  choosing poor schooling and poor role models.  The fault is in NOT pointing out the consequences of actions. 

Nature or nurture?  

The BSA troubles started way back before I became a Scout.  Not holding folks accountable WHEN they needed to be so held.  Hoping if we send the trouble maker away, they would cease to be a trouble maker someplace else.  Not being willing to face up to the reality of the occurrence.  Now, the reaping of the sowing, even when the seed sown was not really known or recognized. 

"The fault, dear Brutus .... " and so forth.

Societal cultural change?  Hunger and lack of education and lack of good health care and overt greed and "me first"  and less than equal treatment in pay and opportunity...   Change is therefore inevitable.   Can we guide that change toward the ideals?

Do we still have ideals worth pursuing?  

I've got snow to shovel....  see you on the trail. 

[ParkMan]

3 hours ago, David CO said:

BSA is not a winning team.   BSA is bankrupt.  BSA is in the midst of a horrific sex scandal.  Calling BSA the best youth program in the country is not only incorrect, it's delusional.

At this point in time, talking up scouting in this manner looks a lot like a slap in the face to all of the victims of sex abuse.   It tells them we don't get it.  It might even tell them that the only solution is to end BSA.

 

I understand what you are saying.

It's possible to believe in the core concepts of the program and think that those concepts are good.  For those who really believe in those concepts it's not a stretch at all to call those concepts the best.  Ideas based around developing youth, helping them to experience the world, to learn about the outdoors, do develop confidence in their actions. These are all good, noble pursuits.

It's also possible for that same person to look at the entity known as the BSA and recognize that it has made numerous, colossal mistakes.  Of course we look at the BSA and see the utter failure in how they've handled the youth abuse issues in our past.  I agree that it is difficult to look at the BSA and consider the non-profit that runs it as the best in the country.

We've got a contradiction here.  Myself, I'm able to look at these two different aspects and believe in the Scouting program as defined by the BSA and in parallel work to improve the actions of the entity that is the BSA.  Though the BSA had made reprehensible decisions in the past and makes many decisions today that I wouldn't make, I don't think the BSA of today is awful.  The BSA of today is an middle of the road non-profit that is struggling under enormous pressures.  On the whole it's full of well meaning people who are trying to make the right choices.  

I suspect that in reality most of us are doing the same thing I am - looking at the program and believing in it.  I don't think we'd all be here if we didn't.  I can advocate for the program because I know the program is sound.  Others cannot and that's fine for them. 

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Exactly. At this point Boy Scouts is synonymous with intolerance and an anachronistic view of the world.

You're buying in too much to the hyperbole.  

The BSA is not the evil organization that some make it out to be.  Yes, it had a dark period.  Yes, it has and continues to make shortsighted decisions in the belief that is has to chase members.  But, the BSA of today isn't as bad as the press would make it seem. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by ParkMan
clarified a thought

[yknot]

37 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

You're buying in too much to the hyperbole.  

The BSA is not the evil organization that some make it out to be.  Yes, it had a dark period.  Yes, it has and continues to make shortsighted decisions in the belief that is has to chase members.  But, the BSA of today isn't as bad as the press would make it seem. 

I think it's OK for scouters to feel that way but I think we ignore the broader public perception at peril. People who are older tend to have better views of scouting and some connection to it. Younger people do not. BSA, or whatever survives bankruptcy, has a huge PR question ahead of it that can't be ignored. 
 

[ParkMan]

13 minutes ago, yknot said:

I think it's OK for scouters to feel that way but I think we ignore the broader public perception at peril. People who are older tend to have better views of scouting and some connection to it. Younger people do not. BSA, or whatever survives bankruptcy, has a huge PR question ahead of it that can't be ignored. 
 

I guess I'd answer that two ways.

1. For your average unit Scouter, what would you have them do?  They are trying to build a local program, trying to have enough kids in the program so that their own kids can have others to Scout alongside.  But, I don't think we should encourage local unit Scouters to hold their heads in shame because they want to run a Cub Scout pack or a Scouts BSA troop.

2. Yep - at the higher levels where you are dealing in public opinion of course they need to have a campaign to market Scouting to a new generation and especially as we come out of this dark period in the BSAs history.

[Eagledad]

11 minutes ago, yknot said:

I think it's OK for scouters to feel that way but I think we ignore the broader public perception at peril. People who are older tend to have better views of scouting and some connection to it. Younger people do not. BSA, or whatever survives bankruptcy, has a huge PR question ahead of it that can't be ignored. 
 

As this forum proves over and over, feelings and perception are in the eyes of the poster.

My personal observations and discussions with young adults is they either believe the program is either good for youth, or they have no opinion at all. 

My opinion, based more from this forum than personal discussions, is that perception with people of all ages is based on experience with the BSA. Which is why those with no personal experience don't have really have an opinion.

The only adults I observe with a negative opinion appear to have a personnel bent toward the BSA. And that makes sense to me. Scouting is a great program for youth with a noble 110 years of working with youth. Why would anyone have a negative opinion of that unless they have some personal negative experience?

Barry

[yknot]

3 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I guess I'd answer that two ways.

1. For your average unit Scouter, what would you have them do?  They are trying to build a local program, trying to have enough kids in the program so that their own kids can have others to Scout alongside.  But, I don't think we should encourage local unit Scouters to hold their heads in shame because they want to run a Cub Scout pack or a Scouts BSA troop.

2. Yep - at the higher levels where you are dealing in public opinion of course they need to have a campaign to market Scouting to a new generation and especially as we come out of this dark period in the BSAs history.

I would respond that I leave scouting as a volunteer as of 12/31/20 because I don't have a way to answer those questions. An organization that has so many good people in it can't be evil but I have lost faith in its ability to manage itself and prevent more crises in the future.  

 

[David CO]

39 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Why would anyone have a negative opinion of that unless they have some personal negative experience?

Perhaps so.   But that's not a small number of people.  It's like limiting it to only those who have been bitten by a mosquito. 

 

[Eagledad]

25 minutes ago, David CO said:

Perhaps so.   But that's not a small number of people.  It's like limiting it to only those who have been bitten by a mosquito. 

 

I disagree.

Barry

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I would respond that I leave scouting as a volunteer as of 12/31/20 because I don't have a way to answer those questions. An organization that has so many good people in it can't be evil but I have lost faith in its ability to manage itself and prevent more crises in the future.  

 

Respectfully - I think you're wrong to quit. 

There are no guarantees of success in anything we do.  All we can do as people is look at the options that are out there and make the best choices possible.  Kids needs people like you to bring the program to life.  I'd encourage you not to get caught up in the hyperbole that Scouting is run by awful, evil people - it is not.

[yknot]

49 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Respectfully - I think you're wrong to quit. 

There are no guarantees of success in anything we do.  All we can do as people is look at the options that are out there and make the best choices possible.  Kids needs people like you to bring the program to life.  I'd encourage you not to get caught up in the hyperbole that Scouting is run by awful, evil people - it is not.

You are always positive ParkMan. Thanks for kind words. If I thought I could make a difference at the local level I would stay. I'll still be kicking around here though. I can't help myself.  

[Owls_are_cool]

@yknot you providing insight here is useful to me. I hope you keep contributing.

With covid-19 restrictions and the BSA's bankruptcy filing, I have been rethinking how my unit should do scouting. My district and council, in the past, provided effective programing that my troop can partake in. Camporees, merit badge universities, Klondike, etc. But with the 25 person gathering limits, difficulty securing facilities for events, and the expensive cleaning/masking regulations, my district can no longer deliver programming that helps units.

Maybe this is a blessing in disguise? Maybe it is a chance for my Troop to get back to basics? Less meetings and more doing stuff outdoors? Camping, hiking, fishing, shooting, service projects. 

I think this is cultural change we should look forward to. I welcome safety improvements to the program and the BSA can advertise that scouting is now one of the safest places to put children in. Though the BSA MUST fix the issue were people take YPT online and not get credit for it. 

[ParkMan]

20 hours ago, yknot said:

You are always positive ParkMan. Thanks for kind words. If I thought I could make a difference at the local level I would stay. I'll still be kicking around here though. I can't help myself.  

Thank you.  I've had lots of good Scouters who I have worked with that encouraged me to stay positive as much as possible.

As a long time district volunteer, I think you can have a far bigger impact locally than you may realize.  My .02 - find yourself a commissioner role.  That's a great way to share your passion for building a better program for kids.  It's a great way to serve as a coach, mentor, and role model to other Scouters.