Significant Cultural Changes are Coming Soon

[fred8033]

19 minutes ago, yknot said:

 

I think if BSA had been more true to its core statements, it would have avoided becoming such a lightning rod. Be a good citizen, be of good moral character, on my honor, do my duty -- those tenets should have resulted in a more inclusive organization from the beginning. I don't know why BSA became so closely aligned with religious connections to the point where it lost its independence and ability to follow its own moral code, but it has certainly caused a lot of strife.

 

Exactly.  Many major denominations ... even in 1999 ... did not have issue with the membership questions.  Instead, it got thrust into a defining statement about ALL scouting.   This could have been easily side-stepped.

[fred8033]

50 minutes ago, David CO said:

BSA is not a winning team.   BSA is bankrupt.  BSA is in the midst of a horrific sex scandal.  Calling BSA the best youth program in the country is not only incorrect, it's delusional.

At this point in time, talking up scouting in this manner looks a lot like a slap in the face to all of the victims of sex abuse.   It tells them we don't get it.  It might even tell them that the only solution is to end BSA.

 

As before, we will have to disagree.   Your views are yours.  

I agree BSA is probably one option in many good youth programs.  And, there are many more good youth choices now then ever before.  In 1960, there were many fewer choices.  Now, there are dozens of choices.  

I must disagree with you on the slap-on-the-face view.  BSA is caught in a legal mess as many things get caught in legal messes when society changes.  Maybe BSA was more vulnerable.  Maybe.  BUT, society was at fault as a whole.  BSA had a system before many organizations to try to block abuse.  It worked and did not work, but BSA tried.

[CynicalScouter]

36 minutes ago, yknot said:

I don't know why BSA became so closely aligned with religious connections to the point where it lost its independence and ability

It has always been this since the beginning. Connections to churches was a selling point that scouts was about being "moral" and "Duty to God".

It didn't "lose" independence. It never had it from the get go.

[CynicalScouter]

26 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Your speaking in an endless circle to continue appearing profound. Do you know how many adults today have even heard of the Dale case?

They don't know Dale. What they know that Boy Scouts of America was "intolerant". And now they have kids and won't take their kids to an "intolerant" organization.

[CynicalScouter]

27 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I agree with Fred, had National just stuck with the 1960 program,

Yep. Complete with segregated units/Councils and bans on homosexuals and girls.

Because nothing says modern than that.

[David CO]

12 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

BSA is caught in a legal mess as many things get caught in legal messes when society changes.  Maybe BSA was more vulnerable.  Maybe.  BUT, society was at fault as a whole.  BSA had a system before many organizations to try to block abuse.  It worked and did not work, but BSA tried.

It's hard to believe that there are people out there who still believe BSA was innocent.  

 

[CynicalScouter]

25 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Though most can't name BSA vs Dale, every scouter has seen the result.  Can't recruit in classrooms.  Labeled discriminatory.  etc, etc, etc.   I've never seen a group work as hard to help youth participate, but at the same time get labeled as much as BSA does. 

Exactly. At this point Boy Scouts is synonymous with intolerance and an anachronistic view of the world.

[fred8033]

21 minutes ago, David CO said:

It's hard to believe that there are people out there who still believe BSA was innocent.  

Innocent, no.  BSA exists in a society sharing deep guilt.  My view is it's wrong to accuse BSA more than you accuse police, churches, schools, families.  Definitely accuse those specifically involved.  Beyond that, this was a society failure.

Example ... A huge number of scouting units were chartered by schools.  Schools.  Their charters were signed by paid professionals, often school principals, whos careers were built decades of knowledge working with youth and families.  But they signed the paperwork for the program.  Many teachers were often leaders too.  ... How did that expertise not recognize the dangers / risks / incidents / bad leaders. 

I've read dozens of BSAs ineligible volunteer files.  BSA's records often show the involvement of families, police and other adults that were not "BSA".  ... I've rarely seen any of the files say let's give the guy another try in 5 years or after he cleans up.

In 1970, 1980 and even 1990, there was no such thing as a national background check that was done.  In the 1970s and even 1980s, there was no nation wide email.  

When I was growing up, our neighbors were hockey kids ... until the suspensions.  Apparently, the program was hazing the new guys.  It only became an issue after a kid was hospitalized.   And, the neighbor kid was suspended for what him and his hockey friends did to a few other weaker kids in the locker room.   Just a few years ago, I was talking with a hockey dad where the team traveled ... all the dads would go drink and one adult would stay in the hotel with the kids.  Youth protection?

Every youth program, school, etc has dirty laundry and could have done better. 

It would be more accurate to accuse the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s as a whole.

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by fred8033

[David CO]

16 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Exactly. At this point Boy Scouts is synonymous with intolerance and an anachronistic view of the world.

You say it like that's a bad thing.  

[Eagledad]

16 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

They don't know Dale. What they know that Boy Scouts of America was "intolerant". And now they have kids and won't take their kids to an "intolerant" organization.

Intolerant is to harsh a word for what you think they know. The know that the cultural elitist's have targeted the BSA. That may be good or bad, who knows in the politically corrosive cultural environment. But, they can't recite a personal example of intolerance. Just a generalization. Their image of the program is not tainted by personal experiences. 

Barry

[CynicalScouter]

4 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Their image of the program is not tainted by personal experiences. 

Given the image is reality, they won't take their kids in the first place. I know. I've had the conversations personally when people see/know my son was in Cub Scouts.

BSA lost the culture wars and it now looked by many as anachronistic and backwards. You can blame it on culture wars or whatever, but the point is there.

[Eagledad]

28 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Exactly. At this point Boy Scouts is synonymous with intolerance and an anachronistic view of the world.

Again, you used the extreme impression of the effect, I have yet to meet anyone who believes in your context. My opinion is the general public believes the BSA has been caught in the tied of social political radicalism. If program hasn't changed, it is still a good program. 

Barry

[CynicalScouter]

17 minutes ago, David CO said:

You say it like that's a bad thing.  

If you are trying to recruit young people (and ESPECIALLY their parents) into an organization and you want to "Make Scouting Great Again" by going back to the 1960s (segregated troops/Councils, bans on girls and homosexuals, etc.) go right ahead. And watch the numbers continue to plummet.

[fred8033]

7 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Intolerant is to harsh a word for what you think they know. The know that the cultural elitist's have targeted the BSA. That may be good or bad, who knows in the politically corrosive cultural environment. But, they can't recite a personal example of intolerance. Just a generalization. Their image of the program is not tainted by personal experiences. 

 

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

Given the image is reality, they won't take their kids in the first place. ... BSA lost the culture wars and it now looked by many as anachronistic and backwards. 

I think you are both saying similar things and I concur with both.

[Eagledad]

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

Given the image is reality, they won't take their kids in the first place. I know. I've had the conversations personally when people see/know my son was in Cub Scouts.

Ironically many of the parents I talked to are considering to not join because they fear that program will change as a result of membership changes. They know what the scouting program was, is it still there?

3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

BSA lost the culture wars and it now looked by many as anachronistic and backwards. You can blame it on culture wars or whatever, but the point is there.

It's hardly; even on the general publics radar. When the news shows rioters tearing down status to eras history, the effect of wins or losses of the BSA have little importance to their lives. Most folks want to get back to normalcy and the BSA hasn't lost that image.

Barry