Significant Cultural Changes are Coming Soon

[David CO]

1 hour ago, ProScouter06 said:

We must, as others have alluded to, find a way forward so more kids can beneift from what we know is the best youth program around. 

But it is not the best youth program around.  Scouting is very popular with a small segment of American families, so it has a place in our society.  But it is hardly the biggest or best program around.  

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

But it is not the best youth program around. 

On what do you base your argument? 

I have to disagree. It may not be the biggest (thus most popular), but I do think it is the best. 

[Sentinel947]

7 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

On what do you base your argument? 

I have to disagree. It may not be the biggest (thus most popular), but I do think it is the best. 

Best will always be subjective. There a bunch of very worthy activities for youth to involve themselves in, and a variety of very worthy volunteer organizations for adults to provide service to. 

I firmly believe in the Scouting program, and I back that belief with time, talent and treasure. It's the best activity I was involved with as youth, but best is going to depend on each youth and their unique interests and needs. 

[mrjohns2]

1 minute ago, Sentinel947 said:

Best will always be subjective. There a bunch of very worthy activities for youth to involve themselves in, and a variety of very worthy volunteer organizations for adults to provide service to. 

I agree, that is why I said "I think it is the best". @David CO made such a definitive statement, I was looking for some thought process to back that up. 

[ProScouter06]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

But it is not the best youth program around.  Scouting is very popular with a small segment of American families, so it has a place in our society.  But it is hardly the biggest or best program around.  

Yes, you're right, it does have a place in our society,  and is enjoyed by a small segment in proportion to the population; however with that kind of perspective toward Scouting then we can never become the best program for youth that we strive to be. I rest my case on why the BSA, a non-profit among many others, employees thousands of individuals to promote and share the positive story that Scouting can tell. The incredible impact it has had on countless lives, and the necessity of spreading and growing the movement to every child.

[David CO]

Scouting is a good youth activity.  I wouldn't have started a unit if I thought it wasn't.  The biggest detriment to the scouting program is the unrestricted zeal of its most ardent supporters.  They treat scouting like a cult.  It is a real turn-off to the average person.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, ProScouter06 said:

The incredible impact it has had on countless lives, and the necessity of spreading and growing the movement to every child.

Parents don't care if you have an incredible impact on countless lives.  (You don't.)  They want you to have a reasonably good impact on one life.  Their kid's.  

Parents don't see the necessity of spreading and growing the movement to every child.  (Neither do I.)  They are only concerned about one child.  Their kid.

Maybe the rah rah talk goes over big at national.  It doesn't really work anywhere else.

 

[ParkMan]

My gut tells me that this is an intractable argument.  Is Scouting the best youth activity or not.  Somehow I think that there is a direct correlation between the amount of time you spend on Scouting and your belief in the strength of the program.  I do find that lots of people talk up Scouting.  That's a good thing too and is very healthy at the unit level too.  Most people want to be on a "winning" team.

I would encourage people to believe in the core program, but also be willing to recognize problems and try to solve them head on.  There's nothing wrong at all to recognize the weaknesses in our units, councils, etc.  Recognizing those lets you focus on solving them.

Yet, just as it's important to not be blinded by your admiration for the program, so too do we need to be careful not to always find the negative in what we do.  Scouting is a great program.  Most of our volunteers and professionals are quality people doing their best.  Our councils are generally trying their best as well to do the right things.  Let's not get paralyzed by the overly positive or the overly negative perspectives.

[fred8033]

6 hours ago, yknot said:

I think over the decades scouting became such a stalking horse for so many social issues, whether religious or otherwise. Instead, it should have just stood on its own and focused on being relevant to children. A lot of these headaches never would have existed if so. We could have easily staked out the outdoors/conservation ground and never did. It's not necessarily too late to still do so. 

I agree.  I fear, as much as BSA was targeted that, BSA also took positions that were changing.  BSA's right choice should have been to get out of the fight and focus on what they do best:  outdoors, conservation and adventures such that with each adventure the youth grows and learns.

[CynicalScouter]

15 hours ago, yknot said:

I think over the decades scouting became such a stalking horse for so many social issues, whether religious or otherwise. Instead, it should have just stood on its own and focused on being relevant to children. A lot of these headaches never would have existed if so. We could have easily staked out the outdoors/conservation ground and never did. It's not necessarily too late to still do so. 

How, exactly?

I've heard this complaint so often "if only Boy Scouts of America hadn't been so political!" or some such. The Boy Scouts of America has ALWAYS been political. It's embraced a very conservative, rural (if not suburban) view on life circa 1960s Americana.

1) Segregated councils/units: Since early on Boy Scouts of America (national) allowed for segregated units and even outright segregated Councils. National looked the other way and/or simply allowed those "separate but equal" Councils to exist until they self-integrated in the 1970s. That wasn't a "political" position? That wasn't taking a position on "social issues"? Being silent and allowing those segregated councils and units to exist for DECADES, was a message.

2) Homosexuality and adult leaders: In July 1990 James Dale is an Eagle Scout and Assistant Scoutmaster. He attends a LGBTQ learning seminar and is interviewed by the local paper wherein he reveals he is gay. Dale is subsequently removed from his position as an ASM and files suit against BSA in 1992.

QUESTION: What was the "nonpolitical" solution that BSA should have taken? Not removed Dale? That's a political position on social issues (being gay is OK). Reinstate Dale once the lawsuit was filed? That's a political position (being gay is NOT OK).

This idea that Boy Scouts of America existed or exists in an apolitical, non-social vacuum is not realistic.

You want to get a group of young people out for a hike? Fine. But BSA has also been about things like developing a good citizen with good moral values. The MINUTE you start down that road you have to start making political and social/moral judgements (what does it take to be a "good citizen" to have "good morals"?)

If you want to strip out all of those elements and turn BSA into a hiking and outdoor explorers club fine. But given Boy Scouts of America's history and infrastructure you'd have to literally tear it apart down it is every core statements ("On my honor, I will do my duty, to God and my country..."), documents, etc.

[CynicalScouter]

9 hours ago, fred8033 said:

BSA's right choice should have been to get out of the fight

And what would "getting out of the fight" have looked like, exactly? See my questions here.

 

[David CO]

9 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I do find that lots of people talk up Scouting.  That's a good thing too and is very healthy at the unit level too.  Most people want to be on a "winning" team.

BSA is not a winning team.   BSA is bankrupt.  BSA is in the midst of a horrific sex scandal.  Calling BSA the best youth program in the country is not only incorrect, it's delusional.

At this point in time, talking up scouting in this manner looks a lot like a slap in the face to all of the victims of sex abuse.   It tells them we don't get it.  It might even tell them that the only solution is to end BSA.

 

[yknot]

11 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

How, exactly?

I've heard this complaint so often "if only Boy Scouts of America hadn't been so political!" or some such. The Boy Scouts of America has ALWAYS been political. It's embraced a very conservative, rural (if not suburban) view on life circa 1960s Americana.

1) Segregated councils/units: Since early on Boy Scouts of America (national) allowed for segregated units and even outright segregated Councils. National looked the other way and/or simply allowed those "separate but equal" Councils to exist until they self-integrated in the 1970s. That wasn't a "political" position? That wasn't taking a position on "social issues"? Being silent and allowing those segregated councils and units to exist for DECADES, was a message.

2) Homosexuality and adult leaders: In July 1990 James Dale is an Eagle Scout and Assistant Scoutmaster. He attends a LGBTQ learning seminar and is interviewed by the local paper wherein he reveals he is gay. Dale is subsequently removed from his position as an ASM and files suit against BSA in 1992.

QUESTION: What was the "nonpolitical" solution that BSA should have taken? Not removed Dale? That's a political position on social issues (being gay is OK). Reinstate Dale once the lawsuit was filed? That's a political position (being gay is NOT OK).

This idea that Boy Scouts of America existed or exists in an apolitical, non-social vacuum is not realistic.

You want to get a group of young people out for a hike? Fine. But BSA has also been about things like developing a good citizen with good moral values. The MINUTE you start down that road you have to start making political and social/moral judgements (what does it take to be a "good citizen" to have "good morals"?)

If you want to strip out all of those elements and turn BSA into a hiking and outdoor explorers club fine. But given Boy Scouts of America's history and infrastructure you'd have to literally tear it apart down it is every core statements ("On my honor, I will do my duty, to God and my country..."), documents, etc.

 

I think if BSA had been more true to its core statements, it would have avoided becoming such a lightning rod. Be a good citizen, be of good moral character, on my honor, do my duty -- those tenets should have resulted in a more inclusive organization from the beginning. I don't know why BSA became so closely aligned with religious connections to the point where it lost its independence and ability to follow its own moral code, but it has certainly caused a lot of strife.

 

[Eagledad]

 

28 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

And what would "getting out of the fight" have looked like, exactly? See my questions here.

 

Your speaking in an endless circle to continue appearing profound. Do you know how many adults today have even heard of the Dale case?

I agree with Fred, had National just stuck with the 1960 program, the BSA would be fine. excepting for the last 10 years, every measurable national membership decline since the early 1960's can be traced to some major program change by National. 

I disagree with Colorado Co, the BSA program was and still is one of the best youth programs in the county. There is a difference between National business policies and program. If we separate each in the discussion, program always comes out as desirable choice for parents. While National's tinkering brought frustration, it was among the users struggling to make a go of a overly complicated program. 

Barry

[fred8033]

59 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

And what would "getting out of the fight" have looked like, exactly? See my questions here.

 

BSA should have found another path out of 1999 BSA vs Dale, like let the kid progress.  If his scouting unit was okay, BSA should not have injected themselves.  Instead, BSA choose to block and Supreme Court made a good decision protecting individual groups ... but that decision started an avalanche againts BSA.

Though most can't name BSA vs Dale, every scouter has seen the result.  Can't recruit in classrooms.  Labeled discriminatory.  etc, etc, etc.   I've never seen a group work as hard to help youth participate, but at the same time get labeled as much as BSA does. 

There were a few more political issues like this, but this is the major one.

Edited December 17, 2020 by fred8033