Major Change in Chartered Organization Relationship

[fred8033]

@GrammaScout  @jcousino  ... From what I'm reading you are both correctly answering the same thing but from different perspectives.  Most COs don't inject to make it a true CO youth ministry, but the CO does have the right. 

Should COs inject themselves more?  That's the big debate.  It's also why the CO concept needs fundamental redesign.

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, jcousino said:

But the unit is wholly owned by the chartering organization and can set whatever faith rules they want as no one is required to join that troop.

Not for the Scouts. For the adults, yes. 

From the by-laws...

Freedom Clause 3. In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faiths be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church. However, no church or religious organization holding a valid charter shall be required to accept as an adult leader any person whose espoused personal beliefs are in conflict with the chartered organization’s religious principles.

[T2Eagle]

My experience has predominantly been with Catholic COs, like my current one.  Although my youth scouting involved a mix of COs: Knights of Columbus for Cubs, Presbyterian sponsored troop for Boy Scouts.  There should be no question as to where the governance of the troop lies: the troop, and pack, are a subunit of the parish, they exist first and foremost to in some way help express the mission of the parish.  Because the parish is responsible for everything that happens in the troop, good and bad, they must have an active role in what the troop is doing.  The Aims and Methods of scouting aren't hard to understand, if the CO and the people running the CO don't understand how scouting works that's a failure of the scouters involved to help educate while at the same time understanding their own role as subservient to the CO's governance.

The question of how scouting helps express the mission of a church is an interesting one and can vary depending on what the church wants.  For me one possible close parallel is Catholic Youth Organization (CYO) sports.  There's nothing inherently Christian or non-Christian about basketball, soccer, track, etc., and yet almost all Catholic parishes participate in CYO sports.  The way that this mission is seen as part of the over all mission of the Church comes almost entirely from ensuring that the activities are always run consistent with the values of Catholicism/Christianity.  There are some specific actions that make the connection explicit such as beginning and ending events with prayer, but it is more a form of osmosis that injects Christ into the sport based on the behavior of the participants more than any explicit actions. 

[fred8033]

1 minute ago, mrjohns2 said:

Not for the Scouts. For the adults, yes. 

From the by-laws...

Freedom Clause 3. In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faiths be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church. However, no church or religious organization holding a valid charter shall be required to accept as an adult leader any person whose espoused personal beliefs are in conflict with the chartered organization’s religious principles.

Where does it say a unit has to accept a scout?  From everything I've read ... though rare ... units can limit youth membership to their own faith or charter organization (even a secular CO).

[mrjohns2]

2 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Where does it say a unit has to accept a scout?  From everything I've read ... though rare ... units can limit youth membership to their own faith or charter organization (even a secular CO).

You are twisting it. It says that you cannot make them be a member of the faith of the CO. If you want to twist it to the opposite, that is up to you, but the wording of the bylaws clearly says that it cannot require that.

Why else would they have that wording? For those that fall away from the church? Well, if they do, they cannot be forced to stay in.

Edited March 22, 2022 by mrjohns2

[fred8033]

7 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

You are twisting it. It says that you cannot make them be a member of the faith of the CO. If you want to twist it to the opposite, that is up to you, but the wording of the bylaws clearly says that it cannot require that.

No.  The clause protects the religious freedom of a scout already a unit member.  It does not say COs need to take on scouts of other faiths.   

"In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faiths be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church."

I'm actually more on the side that I find scouting best with mixed faiths and not tightly tied to a CO faith; aka the troop as a community service of the CO.  But, if we ask the CO to sponsor and expose the CO to legal liabilities, then we should recognize the CO having the option to make the unit a true ministry of their organization.

... again ... the CO relationship needs complete redesign.

Edited March 22, 2022 by fred8033

[T2Eagle]

4 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

You are twisting it. It says that you cannot make them be a member of the faith of the CO. If you want to twist it to the opposite, that is up to you, but the wording of the bylaws clearly says that it cannot require that.

Why else would they have that wording? For those that fall away from the church? Well, if they do, they cannot be forced to stay in.

It's not twisting it, it's a question of the order of things.  No unit is required to accept into their unit, or to allow to continue in their unit, any particular scout.  So, if I have a scout that simply will not follow the rules of the troop I can end their membership in the troop, that doesn't mean they aren't scouts, but I don't have allow them in my unit.  Similarly, a unit can require as a precondition of membership, that a scout be a certain faith or member of the CO.  The rule you cite concerns scouts who have been allowed membership in the unit, assuming the unit allows members from outside their CO.  If I let non Catholics in my unit I cannot then require that they participate in Church services, but I can, before allowing them in the unit require that they are enrolled in my parish school.

[mrjohns2]

22 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

The rule you cite concerns scouts who have been allowed membership in the unit, assuming the unit allows members from outside their CO.

Uh, twisting. So, the rules say you can't kick the scout out, but you don't have to allow them in the first place? Ok. Sure. Whatever.

[SSScout]

44 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Uh, twisting. So, the rules say you can't kick the scout out, but you don't have to allow them in the first place? Ok. Sure. Whatever.

*ahem*  Been there, done that...

 

[mrjohns2]

I'll eat my words. From the "Rules and Regulations, 2020 edition, page 12"l...

Young people of all religious backgrounds are welcome in Scouting, with some participating in units for youths of a particular religion and the greater majority participating in units open to members of various religious backgrounds.

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

I'll eat my words. From the "Rules and Regulations, 2020 edition, page 12"l...

Young people of all religious backgrounds are welcome in Scouting, with some participating in units for youths of a particular religion and the greater majority participating in units open to members of various religious backgrounds.

Nice to see it written there.  Nicely worded too.

I'd argue that it's not just limited to religious COs.   Organizations that become COs can be selective in their membership.  I'm not sure COs even need a clean policy though it definitely helps.  For example, a Mayberry Citizens League CO could refuse a youth living in Mount Airy.  ... I've not seen it happen, but I could.

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Organizations that become COs can be selective in their membership. 

Do you have a source for this? Or is it just based on the fact that they could end up not accepting the application? 

[GrammaScout]

On 12/4/2020 at 4:59 PM, CynicalScouter said:

It depends on if there are such waves in 2021.

The point of the bankruptcy is that there won't be any future claims against National and the participating Councils for actions prior to 2019 or 2020. That just leaves the COs who will argue that they are covered by insurance from National and/or the Council.

 

Are you certain that there ARE 'waves of lawsuits'?....And, are not the CO's covered by the umbrella policies of the Council?

 

[fred8033]

12 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Do you have a source for this? Or is it just based on the fact that they could end up not accepting the application? 

Mostly based on the application.  It requires a unit leader signature.  That is the chance for the unit to indicate whether unit accepts the scout.  

A key point to remember is we are all volunteers.  We don't get paid to do this.  Now, I will agree that units chartered to public organizations (city, school, etc) can't discriminate on race, creed, color, etc.  But, they can discriminate based on the scout not living in the geography they serve or a similar criteria.  ... I'm not saying it's a good idea.  

I'm saying units are not forced to accept scouts.  

[GrammaScout]

19 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Do you have a source for this? Or is it just based on the fact that they could end up not accepting the application? 

I understand that Troops are allowed very little in 'selective membership'.   Atheists are not allowed to join of course because the Policy is that the Scout must believe in a power higher than himself.  Although they lie and get in anyway.   Of course, if you are an atheist, you operate on different values anyway.   A Scout with a history of being 'trouble'...is not automatically allowed to join either.   Other than that, any selectivity in membership would be quite contrary to the policies of the Program.