Major Change in Chartered Organization Relationship

[Eagle94-A1]

I have a long time Scouter of the troop who does not like the fact that the troop is owned by the church and the pastor can change how we do things.  We have had a change in leadership recently and the new pastor has asked us to stick to our Scout room, and avoid going into other areas unless we reserve them  in advance. In the past, we had free reign as long as it was not in use.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Eagle94-A1

[fred8033]

31 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I have a long time Scouter of the troop who does not like the fact that the troop is owned by the church and the pastor can change how we do things.  We have had a change in leadership recently and the new pastor has asked us to stick to our Scout room, and avoid going into other areas unless we reserve them  in advance. In the past, we had free reign as long as it was not in use.

Work with the scouter to have the troop buy the building and loan it to the church for occasional use.  

Edited February 24, 2022 by fred8033

[awanatech]

12 hours ago, GrammaScout said:

But there MUST be a more clear definition of what 'use' really means...and it will be somewhat different for each CO...I still refer to Churches, here.  We 'use' the Scouts to do some landscape work every year...does that work?  I guess I shall remain dense because I cannot fathom how a Church can 'set up' the Program of a Scout Troop.  They can oversee it, of course.  We always have had a couple of male members who 'guide' these outdoor projects.  What to do...where, etc?    But does this say that the Executive Church Committee, picks out the Camp for the Summer every year?  Does the CO decide on the Fundraisers for the year?   Does the CO tell the Scouts where and when to distribute flyers on food drives?   Our District has neighborhoods mapped out?   IF the CO doesn't like the neighborhood, do they then pick their own...causing another Troop to make other plans?     Does the Church President keep track of which Adults need to refresh training and track them to make sure they get it?....ETC.  Does an activity idea from the SPL get bumped if the Church President doesn't like it?   I am not being saracstic here...I just do not follow what having the 'CO run the Troop, the Program' means ????   

Following BSA's model, the CO would choose adults to be on the Unit Committee, not necessarily whichever parents agree to do it that year. Would it include parents from the unit? Probably, and it should. However, following BSA's model could have a Unit Committee made up of church members that have no direct relation to unit. And so yes, the CO could decide where the troop attends summer camp. And where to distribute food drive flyers. And keeping track of adult training. Those are all committee functions when you get down to it. Officially, everything that BSA publishes points back to a CO based committee rather than random parents who agree to do it. Just because we've all done it differently for many years does not change the legal designation & responsibilities of the CO.

[gpurlee]

16 hours ago, ThenNow said:

I realize I’ve asked this before, but thought I would try the old material in front of a new audience. By any wild chance might someone have a link or digital copy of a Charter Agreement from the 70’s or 80’s? I’d be much obliged to see it, if so. 

I have served as the council historian for many years and searched through my materials from that time period. No charter agreement found but the thing that stuck me was the new unit organizational materials provided by the council. There was essentially no training material that covered chartered organization duties, responsibility or accountability. There were no references to youth protection which is not surprising since it was the late 1980's before the BSA rolled out its youth protection program.  I think that it is fair to say, based on what I could find from that time period, that many chartered organizations probably did not recognize the full scope of their responsibilities ... or potential liability. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by gpurlee

[fred8033]

30 minutes ago, gpurlee said:

... many chartered units probably did not recognize the full scope of their responsibilities ... or potential liability. 

The best lawyers from that time did not recognize the responsibilities / liabilities.  The best insurance companies at the time did not recognize the responsibilities / liabilities.   It's only seen with hindsight using new understanding and extended interpretations.  

[skeptic]

"extended interpretations".  Hmmmm.😀

[SSScout]

*sigh*

As always, "The Work Is Done By Whoever Shows Up."

Many times, we hear of "Active COs" , "silent COs",  "COs of Convenience".

The CO of my Cub Pack was  set up long before I became Cub Master. Collect the charter signatures,  see you next year, , have a nice day. When wife/Den Leader and I began asking for more involvement of the CO ( a hospital foundation) , we were met with  "that's not what we agreed to, not what we expected, not what we signed up for"

The Troop of my Scout Son was a church.  Same basic thing .  Long time CO, even the signature COR was "for convenience ("you want me to do what? Nah, we like Scouts, you go ahead and do Scouting. ), but they would do and help when we asked for specific things.  Approve named Leaders?   Sure, you say they're okay? Fine with us. 

Knew another unit,  CO church REQUIRED members to be of the same faith. Council said, that is their right.  They kept a TIGHT rein on everything Scouty there.  Units disbanded after about 6 years. 

[jcousino]

3 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Work with the scouter to have the troop buy the building and loan it to the church for occasional use.  

How can a troop buy anything as they are a subpart of the church or sponsoring group? 

[MikeS72]

22 minutes ago, jcousino said:

How can a troop buy anything as they are a subpart of the church or sponsoring group? 

I do believe that was meant a joke/sarcasm. 😁

[jcousino]

Not sure why any Christian church would sponsor any scout troop that was not a direct extension of its youth Christian ministry of that church. If the church does not involve the troop in its ministry efforts then please not call it a ministry of the church. My view is that all are welcome no matter your faith background but understand we are a Christian church that believes in Christ preached. (hope this is the view of all Christian sponsors of scouting) This should be made known upfront. There are other fine secular scout-sponsored groups if this a problem

[jcousino]

1 minute ago, MikeS72 said:

I do believe that was meant a joke/sarcasm. 😁

sorry did not read all the posts

 

[GrammaScout]

On 12/4/2020 at 12:02 PM, CynicalScouter said:

I would simply note that the latest iteration of the BSA charter and rules/regs made some...interesting changes to the unit asset provision upon unit dissolution.

RULES AND REGULATIONS OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA

June 2018 revisions and current September 2020

Compare the above to the 2007 version

 

 

[GrammaScout]

On 2/24/2022 at 12:10 PM, SSScout said:

*sigh*

As always, "The Work Is Done By Whoever Shows Up."

Many times, we hear of "Active COs" , "silent COs",  "COs of Convenience".

The CO of my Cub Pack was  set up long before I became Cub Master. Collect the charter signatures,  see you next year, , have a nice day. When wife/Den Leader and I began asking for more involvement of the CO ( a hospital foundation) , we were met with  "that's not what we agreed to, not what we expected, not what we signed up for"

The Troop of my Scout Son was a church.  Same basic thing .  Long time CO, even the signature COR was "for convenience ("you want me to do what? Nah, we like Scouts, you go ahead and do Scouting. ), but they would do and help when we asked for specific things.  Approve named Leaders?   Sure, you say they're okay? Fine with us. 

Knew another unit,  CO church REQUIRED members to be of the same faith. Council said, that is their right.  They kept a TIGHT rein on everything Scouty there.  Units disbanded after about 6 years. 

Well done.  Your examples here reveal the range of the 'interpretation' of Charter Instructions.  Our experience with three Lutheran churches has been more of the first example...but the fourth and latest, more like the last example...all from having church leadership be people who have NO clue about the program, its policies, programs or how it is managed !!   "We don't have the Staff to run the Troop' so it must go"...and it has and picked up by a nearby Lutheran Church, much smaller, but with a huge Gym and they are thrilled and honored to do so.   The Pastor is familiar with Scouting...as are several members.    The dumping of this exemplary Troop of 50 years...for no real reason...is already in the grape vine and it isn't positive.  So be it.

 

[GrammaScout]

On 2/24/2022 at 1:12 PM, jcousino said:

Not sure why any Christian church would sponsor any scout troop that was not a direct extension of its youth Christian ministry of that church. If the church does not involve the troop in its ministry efforts then please not call it a ministry of the church. My view is that all are welcome no matter your faith background but understand we are a Christian church that believes in Christ preached. (hope this is the view of all Christian sponsors of scouting) This should be made known upfront. There are other fine secular scout-sponsored groups if this a problem

Thanks for your opinion although it reveals that you are greatly mistaken about the 'Christianity' of the Boy Scouts Program of the USA.  The requirement is that a Scout must have a belief in a higher power.  For a long time, the majority were those who believed in the 'Christian God'.  The values and principles of the program align well with Christian teachings....but also with Jewish, Hindu, Muslim teachings...all who have a belief in a higher power than themselves.   Atheists are not eligible although we KNOW of Scouts and Adults who lied to get in.  There are Troops that are all Jewish or all Muslim, etc. likely sponsored by a house of worship or a business  of their own denominations.   And that works, that is OK.   Scouts can earn the religious award given in their denomination while in a Troop that is predominantly of another.   

If a Church...like ours tried to do...puts the Scout Troop under the Youth Ministry of the Church...there is nothing but problems.   In our case, the Youth Minister...a female...had NO knowledge whatsoever but yet presented this 'plan' that essentially made the Troop a 'Lutheran Youth Activity'.   Parents may not necessarily want their Scouts to be that close to a denomination that is not theirs...that is their right.  It becomes run by the Youth Minister, not the Scout Committe, and certainly not the Scouts.  Religion is but a small part of a huge program of multitudes of activities.  Any Church member including that Youth Minister who is assigned to become part of the 'Committee', attend outings perhaps, must be trained...and no member wanted to 'go that far'.   Other Youth in the Church could not participate in the activities unless they became a Scout...and that led to some friction when they saw the many things the Troop did as compared to the regular Youth program.

I believe that it is the job of the CO to 'oversee' from a distance.  Meet and make friends with all the Scouting Adults...come to a meeting once or twice...reveal the presence but not 'corporate control'.  

Years back it was policy that every new Church President and perhaps others would connect with the Scoutmaster and those on the Committee.   That stopped about 10 years ago...the beginning of the nasty attitude that led to the dumping of this Troop of 70.

It is not a 'Christian' organization...although many see it as that.  It is compatible with  Christian teachings.  And that is all it has to be.    

 

 

 

[jcousino]

18 hours ago, GrammaScout said:

Thanks for your opinion although it reveals that you are greatly mistaken about the 'Christianity' of the Boy Scouts Program of the USA.  The requirement is that a Scout must have a belief in a higher power.  For a long time, the majority were those who believed in the 'Christian God'.  The values and principles of the program align well with Christian teachings....but also with Jewish, Hindu, Muslim teachings...all who have a belief in a higher power than themselves.   Atheists are not eligible although we KNOW of Scouts and Adults who lied to get in.  There are Troops that are all Jewish or all Muslim, etc. likely sponsored by a house of worship or a business  of their own denominations.   And that works, that is OK.   Scouts can earn the religious award given in their denomination while in a Troop that is predominantly of another.   

If a Church...like ours tried to do...puts the Scout Troop under the Youth Ministry of the Church...there is nothing but problems. If there is no christian input by the christian chartering partner which is well within there rights to require any level of involve ment.had NO knowledge whatsoever but yet presented this 'plan' that essentially made the Troop a 'Lutheran Youth Activity'.   Parents may not necessarily want their Scouts to be that close to a denomination that is not theirs...that is their right.  It becomes run by the Youth Minister, not the Scout Committe, and certainly not the Scouts.  Religion is but a small part of a huge program of multitudes of activities.  Any Church member including that Youth Minister who is assigned to become part of the 'Committee', attend outings perhaps, must be trained...and no member wanted to 'go that far'.   Other Youth in the Church could not participate in the activities unless they became a Scout...and that led to some friction when they saw the many things the Troop did as compared to the regular Youth program.

I believe that it is the job of the CO to 'oversee' from a distance.  Meet and make friends with all the Scouting Adults...come to a meeting once or twice...reveal the presence but not 'corporate control'.  

Years back it was policy that every new Church President and perhaps others would connect with the Scoutmaster and those on the Committee.   That stopped about 10 years ago...the beginning of the nasty attitude that led to the dumping of this Troop of 70.

It is not a 'Christian' organization...although many see it as that.  It is compatible with  Christian teachings.  And that is all it has to be.    

 

 

 

Let me look at this a little differently. Yes, you are right at any level above the unit level. Scouting cannot favor one faith over another. But the unit is wholly owned by the chartering organization and can set whatever faith rules they want as no one is required to join that troop.

I have seen CO require that the scout leadership either be members of that church or sign that they agree with the teaching of that church. I have seen groups require some level of a statement of faith. The LDS church was the best example of that. The church picked the leadership and made all the rules of membership.

Not sure why her being female is a problem introduce her to the scouting process. To me, she should be the Charter organization rep. or at least on the committee As youth development is under her office. It’s not your troop really. It’s the churches troop as you are a part of the CO troop. Your troop is not an independent group.

 So basically you want the church membership to pay to provide you with a building and cover your insurance needs, sign a few forms, and leave you alone. So what do they get for their investment? What you are describing to me is your church is more like if an American Legion post sponsored your troop. They would have no reason to inject Christian values into the unit.

I believe what you say is 100% accurate, seeing many churches run that way. My complaint is that if the church does not interject some teaching Christ and Christian principles ( You cannot claim Christian principles without Christ), then they should not call it a ministry of the church as they are acting more like an American Legion post ( God bless the good men and women of the posts)

When one joins the church troop it should be made plain if they are uncomfortable there are other troops sponsored by other good groups that are not sponsored by a Christian church. If the troop was sponsored by a Hindu temple then I would expect the Hindu faith to be taught.

The CO agrees to run the scouting program so I would expect the troop to run like a scout troop. Sorry it sounds like you have had personalty problems in the past.