Major Change in Chartered Organization Relationship

[ThenNow]

On 6/11/2021 at 9:24 AM, CynicalScouter said:

BSA has now said

1.  Coverage only started in 1977 or 1978.
2. Prior to that, the COs were on their own.
3. And there are caps/maxes. So if the abuse victim sues and wins $3 million, BSA (and its insurance) covers the first $X million (depends on the policy year), the rest is on the COs.

Where was this said? If you can, I’d love a link or reference. Thank you.

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Where was this said? If you can, I’d love a link or reference. Thank you.

@gpurleefound it. page fifty-two of document 4108 in the court filings

Edited June 13, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[GrammaScout]

Gramma Scout is back,.,,and not happy.  As has been expected, our Church Council with a unanimous vote will NOT be re-newing the Charter we have had for 50 years!   The Charter expires Dec. 31 leaving less than 41 days for this Troop of 60 to find a new CO.   Only an extreme miracle can accomplish this.  Of course, the size is working against us as very few sites can handle that many Scouts.  I assume it will split either in half or more likely with individual transfers x 60.   There are nearby Churches that may consider chartering two Troops just having meetings, etc. on different dates.  Folks are quite upset...and anxious but still trying to stay calm for the benefit of the Youth.  

I had posted way back about the growing attitude of 'we OWN and Operate ... and manage, etc...the Troop.  They now manage the 'funds'.  There has been a sudden increase in the number of Past Presidents and other leadership people who have zero knowledge and zero working experience in Scouting.  This began 10 years ago....and some of us have lived in trepidation since then.

There is this absurd thought that there are two choices:   Either WE own and control it or we do not Charter and it will be just another comunity Youth program.   Black and white thinkers often have other problems as well...ha

I have tried and tried to explain that they operate in the Grays...that it  is different than any other program with which they 'might' be acquainted but to no avail.   They have told us often that THEY own the Trailer, the Shed, the Gear...and all the Funds.    We are hopefull that on December 31, that attitude will be gone but aren't sure what they may come up with !!   They are mentioning a Facility Usage Agreement but the edicts and restrictions that will be in it, will not be welcomed.  We really do not want to be here any more......And:  without a signed Charter we are not a Troop anyway so we cannot 'meet' anywhere.  They still do not get this...!

The Troop Committee was going to just ask for an extension of the Charter...but we cannot fathom they would do that.   What would be the minimum time to find and set up a new CO?   

I apologize for this 'sad' writing.  I have a grandson working on his Eagle Project and his Dad has already found the ways for him to continue and be awarded this Honor without this Troop.

 

Neither our Troop nor this Church have had any abuse claims made and research and chats with former Scoutmasters and Council members could not find any that might still be out there.

This is all about protection of Assets...as should be done, but with reason, logic, sanity, adequate knowledge, and ... some caring.   They are 'afraid' of the 'dark', of outside shadows, etc....and there is no way to communicate.  So:  moving on is a good option...just into unknown territory.

Any suggestions, tips, assurances you can offer would be so appreciated....thanks for listening.

 

Gramma Scout...                          

 

[gpurlee]

31 minutes ago, GrammaScout said:

Gramma Scout is back,.,,and not happy.  As has been expected, our Church Council with a unanimous vote will NOT be re-newing the Charter we have had for 50 years!   

What denomination is your current sponsoring organization?

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, GrammaScout said:

Gramma Scout is back,.,,and not happy.  As has been expected, our Church Council with a unanimous vote will NOT be re-newing the Charter we have had for 50 years!   The Charter expires Dec. 31 leaving less than 41 days for this Troop of 60 to find a new CO.   Only an extreme miracle can accomplish this.  Of course, the size is working against us as very few sites can handle that many Scouts.  I assume it will split either in half or more likely with individual transfers x 60.   There are nearby Churches that may consider chartering two Troops just having meetings, etc. on different dates.  Folks are quite upset...and anxious but still trying to stay calm for the benefit of the Youth.  

I had posted way back about the growing attitude of 'we OWN and Operate ... and manage, etc...the Troop.  They now manage the 'funds'.  There has been a sudden increase in the number of Past Presidents and other leadership people who have zero knowledge and zero working experience in Scouting.  This began 10 years ago....and some of us have lived in trepidation since then.

There is this absurd thought that there are two choices:   Either WE own and control it or we do not Charter and it will be just another comunity Youth program.   Black and white thinkers often have other problems as well...ha

I have tried and tried to explain that they operate in the Grays...that it  is different than any other program with which they 'might' be acquainted but to no avail.   They have told us often that THEY own the Trailer, the Shed, the Gear...and all the Funds.    We are hopefull that on December 31, that attitude will be gone but aren't sure what they may come up with !!   They are mentioning a Facility Usage Agreement but the edicts and restrictions that will be in it, will not be welcomed.  We really do not want to be here any more......And:  without a signed Charter we are not a Troop anyway so we cannot 'meet' anywhere.  They still do not get this...!

The Troop Committee was going to just ask for an extension of the Charter...but we cannot fathom they would do that.   What would be the minimum time to find and set up a new CO?   

I apologize for this 'sad' writing.  I have a grandson working on his Eagle Project and his Dad has already found the ways for him to continue and be awarded this Honor without this Troop.

 

Neither our Troop nor this Church have had any abuse claims made and research and chats with former Scoutmasters and Council members could not find any that might still be out there.

This is all about protection of Assets...as should be done, but with reason, logic, sanity, adequate knowledge, and ... some caring.   They are 'afraid' of the 'dark', of outside shadows, etc....and there is no way to communicate.  So:  moving on is a good option...just into unknown territory.

Any suggestions, tips, assurances you can offer would be so appreciated....thanks for listening.

 

Gramma Scout...                          

 

I hear good and bad in your writing.  

• "Grays" ... This whole BSA bankruptcy is because of grays that are now being exploited by a legal system because the words in the charter did not match what everyone expected ... not church leaders ... not scout leaders ... not BSA staff ... not parents.  Further, the structure creates problems because of unit leaders seen effectively the same as church staff and BSA staff.  ... The fact is words matter.  If the charter says XXXX, that XXXX better be happening otherwise there is negligence and liability for damage.  The CO is smart to not want to sign a charter that it can't or won't be able to fulfill.  
• If the current CO is willing to do a facility use agreement ... GO FOR IT !!!!!   Your scouts will not see a difference.  Be very, very, very thankful.  Be grateful to the church.  The CO's concerns are very, very real.  I'm impressed your CO is willing to compromise.  It means they are happy with your troop and support scouting.  The CO is just worried about legal liability for a program they don't really run in detail, but then are asked every year to sign an agreement saying they do run it in detail.
• I would create a lightly structured non-profit that makes the parents of the current scouts automatically CO members and call it "Parents of Troop #####".  In a way, it's a good improvement.  The SM reports to the CC.  The CC reports to the COR.  The COR is effectively the president of the CO (parents of troop ####).  Heck, the COR could hold annual meetings where the parents re-confirm the workings of the troop.  ... This could be a really good.  Avoid suggesting to the parents that they could directly influence the troop.  Instead, just ask for feedback on "the health of the troop".  Perhaps, ask for an up and down vote on the troop annual plan.  Beyond that, each leader continues to function like today and owns their sphere of influence. 

Scouting is changing.  Your CO recognizes it.  Welcome that your CO is considering a Facilities Use Agreement.  Find a way to make it work.

Edited November 21, 2021 by fred8033

[GrammaScout]

On 11/20/2021 at 7:24 PM, gpurlee said:

What denomination is your current sponsoring organization?

ELCA Lutheran

[GrammaScout]

On 11/20/2021 at 7:24 PM, gpurlee said:

What denomination is your current sponsoring organization?

 

On 11/20/2021 at 8:03 PM, fred8033 said:

I hear good and bad in your writing.  

• "Grays" ... This whole BSA bankruptcy is because of grays that are now being exploited by a legal system because the words in the charter did not match what everyone expected ... not church leaders ... not scout leaders ... not BSA staff ... not parents.  Further, the structure creates problems because of unit leaders seen effectively the same as church staff and BSA staff.  ... The fact is words matter.  If the charter says XXXX, that XXXX better be happening otherwise there is negligence and liability for damage.  The CO is smart to not want to sign a charter that it can't or won't be able to fulfill.  
• If the current CO is willing to do a facility use agreement ... GO FOR IT !!!!!   Your scouts will not see a difference.  Be very, very, very thankful.  Be grateful to the church.  The CO's concerns are very, very real.  I'm impressed your CO is willing to compromise.  It means they are happy with your troop and support scouting.  The CO is just worried about legal liability for a program they don't really run in detail, but then are asked every year to sign an agreement saying they do run it in detail.
• I would create a lightly structured non-profit that makes the parents of the current scouts automatically CO members and call it "Parents of Troop #####".  In a way, it's a good improvement.  The SM reports to the CC.  The CC reports to the COR.  The COR is effectively the president of the CO (parents of troop ####).  Heck, the COR could hold annual meetings where the parents re-confirm the workings of the troop.  ... This could be a really good.  Avoid suggesting to the parents that they could directly influence the troop.  Instead, just ask for feedback on "the health of the troop".  Perhaps, ask for an up and down vote on the troop annual plan.  Beyond that, each leader continues to function like today and owns their sphere of influence. 

Scouting is changing.  Your CO recognizes it.  Welcome that your CO is considering a Facilities Use Agreement.  Find a way to make it work.

 

[GrammaScout]

This is the statement we were given  : "If the troop wants to manage itself why would we sign the charter? Either it is a mission of the church and therefore the responsibility of the church, or it is independent of the church and just uses our building as a community organization."....... THIS is a black-white thinker.  Either this or This...period.  These folks have zero knowledge and zero working experience with the Scout Program...There used to be always a few who had experience and were great assets but no more.  What I meant by gray is this:   There is a cookie-cutter blue-print...but in reality all things are variable.  The size of the Troop, how many Adults, urban or suburban or rural...finances...etc.  But for the good operation of any Troop some of the 'Cookie cutter statements ' about how to do things must be aligned with their specifics.  I am NOT talking about abuse, safety procedures, any of that..which I think you think I am.        This Troop has excelled for 50 years with a minimal oversight and by members who know Scouting.  Now:  they have taken over the funds...the two people who must sign the checks must now be members...!!   Soon the two we have will age out and we won't be able to write our own checks because there won't be any members who will do it....This Troop intends to follow all the specifications from National on 'how to do things'....but the Church feels that their 'directions, rules, edicts,' supercede all others.   I suspect that you are perhaps just not familiar with a situation like this.   It has sent a message of disrespect and mistrust which is not warranted........All of a sudden, the Troop Budget must be presented at the annual Mtg. and receive a vote of approval by the membership that attends...OK...but 99% of them have no clue about how funds come in and go out in Troops....different pieces of equipment need replacing and many of them...non-campers had no clue what

some of the things were.  Last year we had 5 people vote against the Scout budget.  WHY would anyone do that?   Because they hate Scouting and are making  'their statement as such'.   I contacted 25 Lutheran Churches in our area plus one in New Jersey, one in Wisconsin, and one in Kansas...(THANKS to 2nd cousins) asking if they made the membership vote on the Scout Budget....every single one said:  NO....and many questioned...why would they do that?    HUH?....I have never heard of that.   Thus we are assured that this has come from someone's sick agenda and someone with 'clout'.   So the Troop does whatever they are told to do and so what.   So What?   It is wrong.       

The Parish Manager decided to keep the **Medical Forms locked in her Office !   She does not have permission from the Parents to have access to them as is clearly spelled out on the form.   After she was called up on Friday nights to deliver the Forms so the Troop could leave on an outing and then come over Sunday afternoon to receive them back....she changed her mind about that part.  

How many more pages would you like me to write of examples?

This is all part of the belief that the Church:  OWNS, Operates, Manages, Directs, the Troop and every last thing it has or does.  It was not like this for the first 40 yrs.  

They now want to call it a Ministry of the Church...it always has been in a sense to the rest of us...but now a new definition of 'Ministry'.    Something they control....

Well:   
The Church Council just voted to NOT sign the Charter anymore.  That gives the Troop of 60 boys less than 41 days less the weekends and Holidays...to find a new CO.   Won't happen........so on Dec. 31 this troop  doesn't exist anymore.  Granting Facility Usage is pointless if they are not a 'Troop' anymore.  We are hoping they can perhaps get a nearby Church to take on a Second Charter for like a year and grant facility usage.   

The restrictions and edicts and limitations that will be in the Agreement from the Church will be absurd.   They really don't want to stay there....and This is My Church also by the way...and a remodel a decade back gave a Facility that the Troop uses and couldn't be more top notch...large rooms, big kitchen....large outdoor parking area for Trailer and Shed.....But they/we don't want to pay the price they require to use it all.  These Adults have been shown disrespect that is appalling...especially coming from so-called Church people.  Many of us apologize regularly to these fine folks.   And the Mistrust concerning the Funds...unwarranted.           Part of this began 10 years ago due to liability fears...but the liability is there no matter who is in 'Charge'.   They act like if they are in charge, nothing could happen.........!!     Very ignorant.    We have 6 Scouts working on their individual Eagle projects....and are hopeful that policies are out there where they can continue and finish this Badge in spite of the Church.   

So your reply is appreciated and makes sense...if it were for  a different Troop.

thanks

[GrammaScout]

Oh...and this:   She took information from the Background Check Forms and used it for another purpose.  That is specifically forbidden by the very wording on the form!  She used the private emails of the Adults which they used to be as open as possible on those forms.  She did not ask.  One Adult Scout used his work email ONLY on the form because it is strictly forbidden to be used for anything other than work.  So the church news and announcements came  to him...at work....and he was reprimanded.  He complained to her more than once and was told:   Well, WE own the Scouts....and all their information.     ..there is more on this, but enough said.    So..all of you would not have any issue with this totalitarian rule...unnecessary, for certain.   The Adults for ten years have been so faithful that they committed to jump through all the hoops tossed at them....   Council President and another member come to the Committee Mtg, sit down and dispense a piece of paper and say:   These are the new edicts we have for you and we hope you comply or othewise you are out of here............quote.     This stuff really doesn't bother any of you ?????

[MattR]

9 hours ago, GrammaScout said:

This is all part of the belief that the Church:  OWNS, Operates, Manages, Directs, the Troop and every last thing it has or does. 

That is what the charter agreement says. Look at it from their perspective, if your troop makes a mistake the church is legally liable to clean it up.

I understand that you're frustrated with the changes and all. But I've seen this happen before. Another aspect of the charter relationship is, well, keeping that relationship healthy. It's working with the head of the church so you have someone on the inside defending the troop. Its doing service projects so members of the church know who you are, appreciate what you do and see that it complements the church. Every non-profit I've ever worked with has people that want to express power for no other reason than they can. They can make your life miserable. Learning to deal with them does take time and patience.

Anyway, it seems you have a few choices. Push for a facility use agreement, get in the good graces of someone with real power in the church or find another CO.

 

[fred8033]

11 hours ago, GrammaScout said:

This stuff really doesn't bother any of you ?????

It does bother us.  Deeply.  It's very sad. 

Many factors.

• Organizations have issues as people change.  People stepping in and trying to do the right thing not knowing that they are actually alienating and causing issues.  It's weird that it can actually be more of an issue in non-profits than in for-profit companies.  
• Times have changed.  1950s loosely styled agreements are a real liability now.   WORDS MATTER.  In many ways, I'm with the CO that you want the signed form to match what will really be done. 
• Change does happen.  A large number of scouting units I know have had to change their CO at some point.  Not half, but a large number.  It happens.  
• In the past when I've had problems, I've built a list of grievances to justify / defend my position and to feel righteous in my frustration.  Try not to do that.  It blocks finding a solution.

I am NOT saying you are wrong.  I'm hoping things can de-escalate.  The CO is offering something with the facility use agreement.  If that won't work, find another CO and be grateful for the many years of support your previous CO was able to provide.  

Edited November 22, 2021 by fred8033

[GrammaScout]

"This is all part of the belief that the Church:  OWNS, Operates, Manages, Directs, the Troop and every last thing it has or does. That is what the charter agreement says."  Matt R.

I do so appreciate your reply.  There seems to be agreement that the 'problems' are with how the Charter is worded.  But the words I used above...are not in the Charter.  Those come from    individual interpretations.  And with the change in people and personalities in the Church Councils, the 'interpretation' has done a 180 because of total lack of any knowledge about            Scouting in general and this Troop of 50 yrs, in particular.   The lead Pastor has chosen to            stay quiet so not as to appear to be taking sides.....there is also just no courage.  He will retire in a couple of years.    There is NO ONE else with leadership, clout, or courage to step up.  Again...there is already trepidation as to just how restrictive their Facilities Agreement will be.  The Relationship has not been healthy for about 10 years and some of us saw this coming...it took the District Representative three trips out here to TRY to explain the umbrella insurance policy of the BSA.  This was about 2012.  I can understand the fear of litigation....but when it becomes excessive, it becomes unreasonable.....   thanks

[GrammaScout]

•  

 

Thank you so much for your reply and suggestions:  I am aware I appear to be hysterical...ha...not yet...just SO
 disappointed and angry as to what you did say:   People coming on board and think they can do the more right thing, but actually causing issues and contention....and dismantleing a top knotch Troop.   They have not been willing to listen from the get-go.  So be it...It may be that I...old Gramma Scout...AM the only person speaking out.  This may sound a bit too dramatic, but I almost feel like the sacrificial lamb....ha.....that's OK...

I have been encouraged by a good many who are just too timid to stand up.  I have had great chats with our Council Exec....but this is all really out of his hands,...of course.    This Troop does several service projects for the Church and always has.    But believing that the 'church' can manage, control, direct, operate, etc....is not logical.  There would need to be members willing to do such...and they certainly would require training, I hope, to give them a sense of how it works....and none of them have the interest so it really couldn't happen anyway.

I appreciate your suggestions...and the reminder of the 'good' of the first 40 years....and yes, I and the others do feel we have righteous frustration....wanting things to turn back to how well it used to be....realizing now that the 'change' needs to be a new CO.    Thanks again...

 

[jcousino]

I would think twice and after a lot of  legal consultation before i would ever think of starting a " friend of group" as as chartering partner. The friends of group could now be the finically responsible  parties if an event where to occur.

Not sure i want to loss my house and saving because a child is hurt or injurie not alone being a victim of an other.

If the Big Dogs (CO) are running scared I am personal not willing to pay the cost the cost  or take the risk

Just the cost of defending yourself as the chartering body could be in ten of thousands of dollars.

 

John

[GrammaScout]

I hear you.  This 'Parents or Friends of....'  has never been considered a wise choice.