Recruiting Decisions

[fotoscout]

As TwoCubDad mentioned in the related thread there are benefits to having more than one pack in town.

 

I just got off the phone with three families that wanted to sign up with us this year. Our Bear Den and Webelos Den are overflowing. But we only have one of each. It would have been unfair to take any new boys into these dens at this time. We didn't have enough new boys to make new dens, so we referred them to another pack in town. It was a tough decision for us to send boys to another pack but it was the right thing to do.

 

One of the familys I referred, was referred to me by a third pack in town that had the same problem. We dont need more kids, we need more leaders.

 

[Bob White]

Wouldn't be ironic if it turned out the parents you turned away were the ones who would have been terrific Den Leaders once you got them in the pack.You never know!

[fotoscout]

We looked at that option. It wasn't going to happen.

 

Even if it did, at this point in time the dens have been together with their den leaders since Tigers. The kids and the parents would not spin off into another den with a new den leader. So at best the new people would have become ADL's and the den size would have remained too big. It would have been nice to have enough boys to make a new den and then "coerce" one of the new parents into becoming a den leader.

 

But to follow up on your throught Bob, we signed up two maybe four new leaders with our Tigers and Wolves.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

[Twocubdad]

We're in the same situation with our Bear den. They've got about 13 now, assuming a couple boys have in fact dropped. Of the new boys, more than half were recruited by boys already in the den. It's really tough to tell boys they can't be together in that situations.

 

I wish I had the option to refer boys to the other packs in the area, but they all enforce strict membership limits. The closest pack in the area has one den per year and won't accept more than 10 boys per den, period. They come to school night with a list of open slots. If they have room for 2 bears and you happen to be the third bear in line, they won't take your application. They send them across the cafeteria to us knowing we will do what we can to accommodate everyone.

 

Frankly, I'm tiring of the arrangement. I think we're up to 36 new boys this fall which will put us at 127 total. That's a net increase of 16 over last year.

[johndaigler]

13 or more in a den?

Membership limits?

Parents won't spin off?

 

Whose running these Packs???? Where's the District Leadership?

 

We started August with 7 in my Wolf Den. By Sept. 1, we were at 12 and today we're at 16! You can't help Cubs experience a quality program with a dozen in the den. We decided to split when we realized we were going to hit 12. Oct. 1 was the split date, but the extra 4 boys complicated the splitting process so we'll officially become two dens on the 7th or so. It was a huge struggle to find leadership. And we may lose a boy because the parent wanted to be in the other group -- we split up the original group that were Tigers together, so that each Den had a bit of "Scouting experience".

 

But, it had to be done.

 

And, you guys know you need to fix some of these scenarios. Limiting recruitment -- What's that all about?????? The Parents don't want to split? They don't get a vote till after you decide what's good for the Den, then, of course, they can always vote with their feet.

 

I'm sorry, that probably sounded judgemental, but it's not intended that way. It's not you fault, but something's not right when we turn kids away -- whatever the reason. Having this extra Pack in town doesn't sound like such a good thing after all. . .

 

Good Luck with issues.

 

jd

[Eamonn]

What do you think the District "Leadership" Should do? Or Could do??

Eamonn.

[scoutldr]

Perhaps the Unit Commissioner should do his/her job, which is to keep an ear to the ground for potential unit problems and recommend solutions to the District Commish before anyone else knows it's a problem.

 

I agree. These "mega-units" and "mega-dens" do the boys a disservice. In every den of 13 boys, there are between 13-26 potential den leaders. That should be more than enough to work with.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Bob White]

Or perhaps the unit leadership should have followed their training and started new dens when they got up to 8 scouts.

 

Den size has nothing to do with the adults ability to manage it and everything to do about how kids are wired to be able to function as a social group.

 

That potential member that gets turned away may never come back to scouting. There has to be a better answer.

 

 

[acco40]

Cub Scouts is a FAMILY program. I agree with BW. The pack leadership should realize that the dens "fill-up" at eight. Don't wait for a den leader before forming a new den. As they say, build it and they will come. Besides, this may sound crass, but if a den of eight has no parents willing to get involved with the program that is not a group I'd be willing to take on.

[fotoscout]

Let me start with this, everyone knows someone who was or is in Cub Scouts. This is especially true for people currently in the program. What that translates to, is the simple fact that parents know a good Den (Leader) when they have one. The parents are also painfully aware of friends, relatives, coworkers, and acquaintances that have horror stories associated with poor Cub Scout Dens. As TwoCub pointed out, some would quit before moving their kid from a good den to a lousy, or even an unknown den.

 

As for District support, maybe UCs should be required to go out to each of their units every year and do the talk about becoming adult members of BSA.

 

Acco40, as you say it might be crass, but you've all heard me talk about parents who are always there to help, but won't make the commitment to be a den leader. The only way these large dens work is with tremendous support from the parents. They are astutely aware of the fact that without their help it just wouldn't work.

 

[Bob White]

Please don't say that you are administrating the pack based on rumors and stories from friends and families!

 

Peole will agree to be den leaders when,

1) You show them that as an individual thay have the traits needed to be a den leader.

2) That their decision will have a positive impact on cchildren for years to come.

3) That you will give them the tools and resources they need to be successful

4) You follow through on your promises and recognize them on a regular basis to keep them motivated and rewarded.

 

The surest way to see a pack collapse is to wait for adults to volunteer to help.

[fotoscout]

I dont know where you came up with this..... Please don't say that you are administrating the pack based on rumors and stories from friends and families!

When we draw the line at 8, how would you suggest we determine who stays and who goes, perhaps a game of Russian Roulette until only eight are left. Maybe well just play favorites. Or of course the Den Leader could just be nasty enough until he or she chases enough of them away.

I kiddingly said wed coerce the new parents into becoming leaders, but you are talking about forcing someone to become a leader who really did not want to be one. You are suggesting that someone get up in front of the group and say, If someone doesnt step up, theyll be no Cub Scouts for these kids, now thats coercion!

[Twocubdad]

What I want the district to do is to charter and support new units in the area instead of relying on the goodwill of the existing packs to accept new Scouts even when they are bursting at the seams.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

"The parents are also painfully aware of friends, relatives, coworkers, and acquaintances that have horror stories associated with poor Cub Scout Dens."

 

Who cares what rumors parents hear?

 

And I would never suggest you threaten anyone to be a leader. I am suggesting you select, motivate and support the leaders you need. Anyone capable of being a good parent is capable of being a good den leader. They just have to be asked individually and shown that they have the tools and ability to succeed at it.

[johndaigler]

Hey -

 

Eamonn, I guess I expect District staff to be able to help the Unit through this. Perhaps, I'm assuming too much when I think, that District staff is better trained and more experienced than Unit Leadership, though obviously, that wouldn't ALWAYS be the case. I hope, when the Unit runs out of ideas or starts making poor decisions, then District/Council/National form additional layers of Quality leadership to help redirect the Unit. In this particular case, there seems to be a collection of Units who aren't quite on the right path. Sure, this is the Unit(s) issue, but if we're not on the same team working together, then I'm missing some understanding about the structure of our group.

 

2CubDad - Wouldn't it be easier to support one Unit with more Dens than two separate Units - which certainly requires more administrative work and more Leadership manhours - more meeting places, more Pack equipment, etc.

 

You spoke about the "goodwill" of the Pack in accepting additional boys. I don't get that -- maybe it's just the words you chose. How many boys is "bursting at the seems"???? OH, I see. I went back and read your first post to try and figure it out. 127???!!! Well, that is a lot of boys. Are you ready to give some of them up? Do you have enough Leadership to "create" a new group of Leaders for the new Pack? What would make creating a new Unit a more sensible choice than helping your Unit create more Dens?

 

BW - this . . . "Den size has nothing to do with the adults ability to manage it and everything to do about how kids are wired to be able to function as a social group." . . . is TOO black and white. I hope this isn't what we're teaching our Scouters at any level of Training because it lacks scientific (eduacation research) and experiential validation or truth. Given any group of people, children or adults, the LEAD affects the way the group interacts and performs. Size of group matters, but in more general terms. 8 is not a magic number (3 is!!). I don't want to argue about the detail of 8, because your point that it's getting too large is obvious and accurate. I just don't want anyone to think that the Adult Leader is less significant than pre-teens "wiring".

 

Fotoscout, How big is your group?? If you need ideas for "how" to break a group: geography, scouting experience, behavior in the group setting, dedication to participation, dedication to earning things(badges, patches, pins, awards), physical abilities and health, EQ and IQ, family participation, -- none of these would create a perfect split, so you'd want to use a mix of several. The one you don't want to use much is parent preference. There's no way to make everyone happy, so let everyone be sure that no one's happiness is the deciding factor.

 

jd