The Boy Scouts In Crisis - A Historian's Perspective

[RememberSchiff]

Getting back on the OP would be welcome. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

18 hours ago, David CO said:

I did very poorly at finger painting in kindergarten, but I have never had any desire to go back and finish the job.  That time is past, and I have moved on to bigger and better things.  None of the goals/achievements of my childhood, whether I succeeded at them or not, compare with the goals/achievements of my adulthood.  This is the way it should be.  I have no desire to be a Boy Scout again.

I think the most important lesson we men can teach our teenage sons is that there will someday come a time when they will need to put away childish things and become a man.  Once they become a man, they can never go back to being a boy again.  So they should enjoy their boyhood now.  They can only travel this road once.

 

David,

Are you really comparing finger-painting to the skills, service, and leadership you must learn and demonstrate on your way to Eagle?  Facetious.

Bigger and better things?  Isn't that what Scouting promises?  We come up with bigger and better things for our Scouts all along their path.  And the adults who accompany on the outings and activities we do with our older Scouts often find great challenge in what they are doing, and are satisfied with their accomplishments.  Many of them have never done them before.  Why not recognize their efforts and progress as well? 

Part of the difficulty in putting on a good Scouting program is that there aren't many adults with the skills and lifestyle needed to teach and provide example!!

No one said you'd be a "Boy Scout" again...we are speaking of expanding (or re-expanding) the program to encompass adults...  Wholeheartedly agree they should be given adult-level challenges.  I believe you make a great error when you infer Scouting is a childish thing.  Scouting (mentally separate it from the Boy Scouts of America, please) is indeed a lifestyle.  Do the Scout Oath and Scout Law cease to apply when you "become a man?" 

If you read (or re-read) about Rovering at http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/rovers.html (great resource website, btw) you can get the idea.

The most important lesson?  Well, part of being an adult is that you get to decide what that is.  In our household (and what I strive to convey to our Scouts) it is this  "... ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’  There is no commandment greater than these.”  If you also read what BP put forth throughout his Scouting years, you would come away with those ideas...

Finally, I would suggest, when we look at our American society on the whole, most would agree there is a sore need for adults "... to put away childish things and become a man."  And there is no better way to teach that than by example.  By cutting people out of the program (before they have really become adults) with an arguably arbitrary age limit, you eliminate an opportunity to continue influencing.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by InquisitiveScouter

[carebear3895]

7 hours ago, HICO_Eagle said:

That right there should have disqualified her from any position of responsibility if National wasn't so disconnected from reality.  I know some excellent PhDs but no one I've met with a PhD in "education" has seemed to know a dang thing about teaching.  Field experience should be the first and foremost thing they look for at National.  When you look at who gets selected for the Board or President positions in the past 15 or 20 years, it's almost like the organization wanted to destroy itself.

RECENT Field Experience, if I may ad. Someone who hasn't been around a Cub Pack in 5 years doesn't ad much to the conversation.  

 

But @Eagle94-A1 is correct. The National Director of Program has no field experience. She was hired directly to National a couple years ago by Surbaugh to head STEM Scouts, then moved up to Director of Program when Mosby took over. 

[Eagle94-A1]

10 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

RECENT Field Experience, if I may ad. Someone who hasn't been around a Cub Pack in 5 years doesn't ad much to the conversation.  

Especially with all the changes that occurred in June 2015 and December 2016. Cub Scouts is a completely different program now.

[elitts]

11 hours ago, David CO said:

I agree.

A lot of new rules/restriction are being imposed.  We recently got a new rule that boys are not to remove their shirts.  No shirts and skins in basketball.  No changing shirts on the field. If a boy is wearing a sweatshirt underneath his uniform shirt, and it gets warm, he cannot just remove the sweatshirt.  He must go to the locker room to change.  

Things are getting Victorian.

 

Is that a local council rule or from your CO?  That's just nutty.

[David CO]

4 minutes ago, elitts said:

Is that a local council rule or from your CO?  That's just nutty.

It is from our CO.  

This is getting to be a thing.  A prominent Catholic speaker gave a speech last summer on the topic of Catholic moral values as they relate to modesty.  (I think you can find it on the internet.)  She stated that she doesn't allow her boys out in public without a shirt.  She strongly recommends that Catholic boys wear shirts in the pool or at the beach.  I have heard LDS people say something similar before.  This was the first time I heard it from a Catholic conference speaker.  

It sounds nutty to me.  Historically, the Catholic Church has been known for having nude statues and frescos, even in our churches.  Catholic high schools often had nude swimming in their gym classes.  Growing up, I never considered Catholicism to be a prudish religion.

 My point was that our CO is coming up with new rules and restrictions.  I don't think it would allow the unit to expand the scouting age to 21.

[yknot]

Just to try and circle this interesting discussion about scout membership age limits back to a historical context, I did find out that up until 1948 adults were able to earn Eagle Scout and up until 1972 Explorers could earn Eagle until they were 21. It is also interesting that in a handful of states the age of majority is not 18 but older. I wonder if anyone has any historical information on this. 

I can see the problems that  YPT today has created with having older youth interacting with younger youth even if that took place within some kind of new structure. However, if scouting wants to keep scouting in the lives of people post the age of 18, it might want to take on the challenge at looking at ways to keep older teens, young adults, and adults feel more connected to the organization. For starters, looking at a way to allow high school seniors active in the organization even if they turn 18 before graduating. Many youth organizations have this kind of mechanism. In a way BSA already allows it because it allows a 3 month window for the Eagle BOR.

[HICO_Eagle]

16 minutes ago, yknot said:

Just to try and circle this interesting discussion about scout membership age limits back to a historical context, I did find out that up until 1948 adults were able to earn Eagle Scout and up until 1972 Explorers could earn Eagle until they were 21. It is also interesting that in a handful of states the age of majority is not 18 but older. I wonder if anyone has any historical information on this. 

I can see the problems that  YPT today has created with having older youth interacting with younger youth even if that took place within some kind of new structure. However, if scouting wants to keep scouting in the lives of people post the age of 18, it might want to take on the challenge at looking at ways to keep older teens, young adults, and adults feel more connected to the organization. For starters, looking at a way to allow high school seniors active in the organization even if they turn 18 before graduating. Many youth organizations have this kind of mechanism. In a way BSA already allows it because it allows a 3 month window for the Eagle BOR.

I hate to detract from the OP's excellent historical review but I see no real reason to extend the membership age to 21.  One of the biggest problems I had was keeping promising older teens in the program after they got a taste of car fumes and perfumes.  At 18, a Scout who still wants to be a part of the program can become a Junior ASM -- and I've had a few of them (even was one when I got home from my first year in college).  As a JASM, s/he is a useful bridge between the generally older Scouters and the Scouts themselves without losing the respect of being an "adult".

Extending the membership age to 21 would just push another societal trend that has troubled me, pushing off the age of maturity.  I would see 16-18 year olds not taking responsibility for themselves, with both their parents and them acting as if they were still 12.  90 years ago, there would have been a halfway decent chance that those 15-year-olds (or younger!) would have been the "man of the house".

I had one Life Scout, 17 years old, who had transferred to our troop because of some issue with his older troop.  His parents were great volunteers but he just never showed any leadership or initiative.  He had the skills and physical capability so we took him along with us to Philmont.  I had a counseling session with each of the boys after we got back to base camp -- separated from the rest of the troop but in public and visible to everyone.  When I reviewed his performance on trail, he kept saying it would be different after he got Eagle and I just looked at him and asked why he thought he deserved Eagle if he wasn't going to live up to it until after he got the badge.  The Troop Committee Chair, COR, myself, and his parents ended up having another counseling session with him after getting back to the city and it was the same thing -- things would be different after he got Eagle.  I finally stopped him and told him that if the paperwork were in front of me at that moment, I wouldn't sign it.  That apparently got through to him because when I visited the troop later (I had to move to a new assignment that fall), I was told he shaped up immediately after that and ended up being a fine Eagle.  My point is that we need to stop extending their youth.  The whole point of Scouting is to grow citizens (we used to say something else that would be taken as sexist today).

 

1 hour ago, carebear3895 said:

RECENT Field Experience, if I may ad. Someone who hasn't been around a Cub Pack in 5 years doesn't ad much to the conversation.

I can't talk to Cubs but in Scouting, I'd actually rather have someone with pre-2010 field experience (and even better if pre-2000).  I don't think much of the changes imposed by National in the last 2 decades and would prefer field experience prior to those changes.  I know, that pool is getting thin rapidly but they really do need to get the program back to actually developing knowledge, skills, and attitude (or abilities) instead of the PC mush it's become.  There was a reason Scouting brought Greenbar Bill back in the 1970s and (IMO) it worked while they adhered to what he gave them.

[Eagledad]

20 minutes ago, yknot said:

Just to try and circle this interesting discussion about scout membership age limits back to a historical context, I did find out that up until 1948 adults were able to earn Eagle Scout and up until 1972 Explorers could earn Eagle until they were 21. It is also interesting that in a handful of states the age of majority is not 18 but older. I wonder if anyone has any historical information on this. 

I can see the problems that  YPT today has created with having older youth interacting with younger youth even if that took place within some kind of new structure. However, if scouting wants to keep scouting in the lives of people post the age of 18, it might want to take on the challenge at looking at ways to keep older teens, young adults, and adults feel more connected to the organization. For starters, looking at a way to allow high school seniors active in the organization even if they turn 18 before graduating. Many youth organizations have this kind of mechanism. In a way BSA already allows it because it allows a 3 month window for the Eagle BOR.

I wonder if that meant the adult leaders could work on Eagle, not that the adults where scouts. My dad, who was a scout and SM in the 40's, said he doesn't recall any adults (over 17) working on Eagle.

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

6 minutes ago, HICO_Eagle said:

 At 18, a Scout who still wants to be a part of the program can become a Junior ASM -- and I've had a few of them (even was one when I got home from my first year in college).  As a JASM, s/he is a useful bridge between the generally older Scouters and the Scouts themselves without losing the respect of being an "adult".

I think you meant ASM. JASM is a youth POR for 16-17 year old Scouts. Once they are 18, they are an adult, and an ASM. And yes, they usually carry a lot more weight in the younger Scouts eyes than us old fogeys.

[HICO_Eagle]

Yeah, it was late last night when I wrote that and I held off posting but yknot's post brought it back to mind and I neglected to QC.  I do recall we had an issue once where we couldn't put a newly graduated 18-year-old in as ASM, I think we had to put him in as the Advancement Chair or something like that until he turned 21.

Regardless, the point I was trying to get to is that we as a society (not necessarily Scouting as an organization) need to stop prolonging childhood.  The youth often don't grow and mature until it's demanded of them.  I just read a news story about staffers at Penguin Random House Canada being distraught to the point of tears over the fact that PRHC was publishing a book by Jordan Peterson.  I had to doublecheck to make sure I wasn't reading The Onion.  These are the kinds of people that needed help maturing before they actually got to the "age of maturity".  Scouting can help but not if it keeps going down the touchy-feely DI&E path it seems to be following.

[yknot]

3 minutes ago, HICO_Eagle said:

Yeah, it was late last night when I wrote that and I held off posting but yknot's post brought it back to mind and I neglected to QC.  I do recall we had an issue once where we couldn't put a newly graduated 18-year-old in as ASM, I think we had to put him in as the Advancement Chair or something like that until he turned 21.

Regardless, the point I was trying to get to is that we as a society (not necessarily Scouting as an organization) need to stop prolonging childhood.  The youth often don't grow and mature until it's demanded of them.  I just read a news story about staffers at Penguin Random House Canada being distraught to the point of tears over the fact that PRHC was publishing a book by Jordan Peterson.  I had to doublecheck to make sure I wasn't reading The Onion.  These are the kinds of people that needed help maturing before they actually got to the "age of maturity".  Scouting can help but not if it keeps going down the touchy-feely DI&E path it seems to be following.

I guess I'm not looking at this in a program/citizenship sense but in a marketing/future survivability sense. I also know I sometimes contradict myself when I do this. 

I continually point to other youth organizations that seem to be doing a better job of surviving than BSA is despite having the common struggle of having to engage with fewer and busier kids and families. One of the things that many of these organizations do is find ways to keep youth involved as long as possible and beyond into adulthood. The closest BSA seems to have is FOS and that is a straight out money ask. I think somewhere in here is an opportunity to do more -- just not sure what. 

 

 

[Eagledad]

30 minutes ago, HICO_Eagle said:

Regardless, the point I was trying to get to is that we as a society (not necessarily Scouting as an organization) need to stop prolonging childhood.  The youth often don't grow and mature until it's demanded of them.  I just read a news story about staffers at Penguin Random House Canada being distraught to the point of tears over the fact that PRHC was publishing a book by Jordan Peterson.  I had to doublecheck to make sure I wasn't reading The Onion.  These are the kinds of people that needed help maturing before they actually got to the "age of maturity".  Scouting can help but not if it keeps going down the touchy-feely DI&E path it seems to be following.

Two differences from my youth Scouting experience that really stuck out when  I joined as an adult leader in 1990 was the attitudes toward Patrol Leaders and OA.

OA had lowered it's age requirements allowing very immature candidate to attend ordeal. The rules and methods and expectations of Ordeal were lowered so the more immature pre-pubescents scouts could progress through the weekend successfully. As a result, OA has lost the respect of being an organization of Top Quality Scouts. 

The other difference was the expectation of Patrol Leader ages and experience. The average age of patrol leaders in the 70s was 15 with many driving. Most PLs had at least 2 years experience and really were considered the leaders of the PLC. Now the 14 year old SPL runs the troop of mostly 12 year old PLs. 

An observer of successful troop with an equal ratio of older and younger scouts will see a program that challenges all the scouts at all ages and maturity. Troop programs that loose the interest of older scout tend toward skills and advancement driven activities instead of an outdoor camping program. Just because a troop camps every month outdoors doesn't mean it is an outdoor active program. And that is a big difference. The average new Venturing Program starts because the scouts want more adventure and less skills/advancement activities.

Youth tend to hang out where they can grow from challenges because they like the feeling of accomplishing difficult task.  HICO_Eagle is right, our culture doesn't challenge youth anymore and they grow into immature adults as a result.

Barry

[qwazse]

10 hours ago, ParkMan said:

...  In our society today it will be a hard argument to make that learning scouting skills will keep you from death.  While it is true, the prospect of someone leveraging these skills to save their life is 2020+ is very low.  In not saying it won't happen, but the spectre of death for most kids isn't something they think about. ...

Dude, read the "Scouts in Action" pieces in Boy's Life. Those are just random samples from the numerous awards of merit because scouts retained their skills well enough to save someone's life. It's not about the scout forestalling his/her death (although that effect is possible), it's about him/her forestalling our death from a panoply of causes ... drownings, burns, infections from knife wounds, insect-borne parasites, venomous bites, food-borne illness, mishandled firearms.

 

2 hours ago, yknot said:

Just to try and circle this interesting discussion about scout membership age limits back to a historical context, I did find out that up until 1948 adults were able to earn Eagle Scout and up until 1972 Explorers could earn Eagle until they were 21. It is also interesting that in a handful of states the age of majority is not 18 but older. I wonder if anyone has any historical information on this. ...

@yknot, there's an article in either Scouting or Boys Life sometime in the 60's that codified the change in policy. We referenced it her once-upon-a-topic. If I stumble across it, I'll let you know.

[MattR]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Getting back on the OP would be welcome. 

It seems that threads that wander either discuss what went wrong or how to make it right. Lots of existential angst these days. That's why I'd really like some honest historical analysis. Sometimes I wonder if we're not just a bunch of blind men trying to understand an elephant.