The Boy Scouts In Crisis - A Historian's Perspective

[David CO]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

How many men out there are full of regret at not earning their Eagle?  I know at least a dozen who would come back in a heartbeat to finish their goal.

I did very poorly at finger painting in kindergarten, but I have never had any desire to go back and finish the job.  That time is past, and I have moved on to bigger and better things.  None of the goals/achievements of my childhood, whether I succeeded at them or not, compare with the goals/achievements of my adulthood.  This is the way it should be.  I have no desire to be a Boy Scout again.

I think the most important lesson we men can teach our teenage sons is that there will someday come a time when they will need to put away childish things and become a man.  Once they become a man, they can never go back to being a boy again.  So they should enjoy their boyhood now.  They can only travel this road once.

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by David CO

[yknot]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Not just you...my circumstances for staying in fit your description to a tee...and most of my friends in Scouting as a youth simply left the program when they "aged out."  It is sad that we even have this phrase... 

Scouting should have no age restrictions.  How many men out there are full of regret at not earning their Eagle?  I know at least a dozen who would come back in a heartbeat to finish their goal.

As an Eagle Scout, I would welcome the accomplishment from any person, regardless of age.  What would your unit look like if there were patrols of different ages...or lifelong patrols!!

 

Membership age should be extended to calendar year 21. Some youth organizations use 21 as the cut off, especially if it's something extracurricular, so that they can continue through college. There is no sensible reason I can see for scouts to cut off at 18. At the very least, scouts ought to extend it to calendar year 18 to make it easier for high school seniors to stay engaged in a peer activity through the end of their senior year because a lot of them turn 18 before their year is out.  Would seem to be a simple and common sense way to increase membership.

[David CO]

4 minutes ago, yknot said:

 There is no sensible reason I can see for scouts to cut off at 18.

I can think of one.  Many Chartered Organizations wouldn't like it.  My CO wouldn't like it at all. 

 

[skeptic]

16 hours ago, Wëlënakwsu said:

I never liked the Improved Scouting Program (ISP) – particularly berets & belt loops – and it was not an improvement, but I’ve always thought it receives an excessive amount of ‘blame’.

Like other replies:  My memory of my urban Troop in the early 70’s and all the other Troops I knew thru District events, OA Lodge, summer camp staff, etc…  boys elected Patrol Leaders, planned menus and duty rosters, learned first aid, went camping just as often as pre ISP…  in short…  all the Scouting essentials.  ISP meant new patches and don't have to learn semaphore!

From the late 60’s & early 70’s membership in other Scout organizations like Scouts Canada and Girl Scouts of America has also declined. I recall reading that participation in adult organizations like civic, fraternal and service clubs has also declined during the last 40 – 50 years.

The larger societal issues contributed to the BSA decline much more then the ISP.  Explanations such as working parents, after school activities, etc have been discussed ad nausea. As an urban District person in the early 80’s and with no data to support my position… Many parents were not available and not many after school activities, but the top reason(s) for decline:  Fewer Organizations & their Heads’ will support a Unit and extreme difficulty recruiting qualified Unit Leaders.  

Anecdotally in my District it seemed that thru the early/mid 80’s many of those who kept Scouting going were young adult former Scouts who stayed with the Troop, Lodge, etc during college or job and became post college Scouters.  But gradually many more went ‘away’ after high school and lost the Scouting connection.  Is this just me or do other members recall similar circumstances?

While I was received with open arms as an ASM in an on base troop in Germany in 1966, I lost my involvement due to transfer to remote station and then return to college after going home and getting out.  It was also the middle of the negative "uniform" response already noted in this piece, and the world was chaotic and the hope of the Kennedy challenge was lost due to his and the other prominent leader assassinations.  

I attempted to become reinvolved in 1975 in Orange County, CA but the office ignored me.  In 1976, I tried again in the old GWC and was grabbed, along with my ex after attending a COR in Malibu Canyon.  Have been doing it ever since.  I was fortunate to find an avid, if a bit "different" group in that encounter in Canoga Park, "The Patrones".  They gave me my first adult training at Camp Slausen, and they had some pretty impressive, and eccentric members; Bob White, Skipper, and Mike Brandt among them.  There was also a member, Tadeuzs Borowski, a fabulous and great Scouter who was an international star as well.  He was the equivalent of Eagle in Poland prior to WWII and then particpated in the Scouting Underground, along with his wife.  She was captured and spent time in a camp and he escaped to England an flew as a Polish pilot over Germany.  They later were major playes in a group called Scouting in Exile that perpetuated the scouting programs of the dissolved groups behind the Iron Curtain.  I was privileged to attend a couple of their programs and still have Tad's short bio in my Scouting files.  My ex and I were honored to visit them in their home in Canoga Park once or twice where they shared some of their Scouting experiences and a bit of his work from Disney.  

Moving to Ventura in 1977 I fell into a SM position through my job; the store manager was my boss and the committee chair.  I am still there, struggling to keep us going along with a few others.  The unit turns 100 in December of 2021, if we can survive this latest challenge and I can get some young leaders to join  us with the current challenges.  Camping and hiking have always been the mainstays of the troop, though they spent a decade or more as an NRA junior club as well.  When I took over, we could still get them out with only one adult, if necessary, which we all know is not the best, but often kept units alive in harder times.  And we did get out regularly and began a two decade+ backpack program which included Philmont twice, and Mt. Whitney and the John Muir Trail.  Also five trips to PTC for me, and a sixth last year for the Historian Summit.  

Somehow we scratch our way forward.  If anyone on here is from my area and thinks they might want to re immerse themselves in the challenges, please let me know.  We have a supportive CO and many new and different opportunities with the needed leaders.  Obviously, my age is a factor now, and in the past five years has smacked me with unexpected health issues.  While I would love to have members from my own unit become reinvolved, any willing to honestly work with the current options and challenges are welcome, especially if they might have experience.  But even those with little, but willing to carry the torch, are welcome with proper YP vetting.  

 

One thing I wanted to share is that those that see the basic promise of the larger program need to get involved.  I watched many of the best mentors drop out in the early 80s as the political issues began and the backlash against the Vietnam Era hit us, along with a disconnected National Council who lost site of the main goals.  That has already been partly addressed here.  

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by skeptic
Add a thought.

[yknot]

21 minutes ago, David CO said:

I can think of one.  Many Chartered Organizations wouldn't like it.  My CO wouldn't like it at all. 

 

Curious -- what is the reason for that?  Church youth groups around here frequently allow kids up to 20.

[David CO]

42 minutes ago, yknot said:

Curious -- what is the reason for that?  Church youth groups around here frequently allow kids up to 20.

The sexual abuse scandals.  First we had the scandal in the Catholic Church.  Then we have the scandal in the boy scouts.  Put them together and it is quite a mess.  Our pastor would never approve of us having young adults in the unit.  It could be a deal breaker.  

Extending the age limit might increase membership in some units, but it might cause others to drop their charters entirely.  

Edited November 24, 2020 by David CO

[ParkMan]

The age could be extended, but we would need to redefine the program a bit.

There's no great reason for a program to run from 11 to 21 - that's too large an age range for people to be in the same sets of activities.  I would find it unusual to send my 11 year old child off with a bunch of 19 year olds for the weekend.

I would support a young adult program if we learned the lessons of the UK and had better age separation.  Something like:

• 5-8: Cub Scouts (Lions, Tigers, Wolves)
• 9-11: Webelos (Bears, Webelos/AOL)
• 11-14: Scouts aka "middle school scouting" (Scout through First Class)
• 15-18: Venturing aka "high school scouting" (Star through Eagle)
• 18-22: Rover Scouts "college scouting"

I do agree with @David CO - as people mature, focus them on more "grown up" things.  The limit for Eagle is 18 and should remain 18.  How many kids do we lose during the high school years because they get bored of doing the same stuff since they were 11...

Edited November 25, 2020 by ParkMan
clarified a thought

[SSScout]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

There's no great reason for a program to run from 11 to 21

From  6 to 21 ?   Mustn't forget our Little Brothers and Sisters.   

[Sentinel947]

4 hours ago, David CO said:

The sexual abuse scandals.  First we had the scandal in the Catholic Church.  Then we have the scandal in the boy scouts.  Put them together and it is quite a mess.  Our pastor would never approve of us having young adults in the unit.  It could be a deal breaker.  

Extending the age limit might increase membership in some units, but it might cause others to drop their charters entirely.  

Do you have some sort of data that suggests that young adults are more likely to be sexual predators than older men? The articles I've seen on abuse in Scouting and the Catholic church doesn't seem to show that's a consistent trend. 

[qwazse]

@ParkMan why would I start a 15 year old at Star who hasn’t mastered 1st Class? If a 12 year old masters 1st Class, why withhold work on Star?

But this is the critical distinction — the switch, if you will — that distinguishes BSA’s ascending first 6 decades from the declining latter 6: For a scout, what is rank (or as GBB put it in his handbook, a progress award)? 

• a set of skills that enables one to overcome the challenges of life and even forestall death, no matter when and at what station one masters those skills.
• a developmental track for teens and pre-teens to complement what they are not getting taught in school?

If the former, then it might be important for an ASM or SM age 19 or 59 to secure that foundation. If the latter, then that person-of-a-certain-age should leave the finger paints on grandma’s fridge and go tag a trestle.
My point is, the more we insist that the trail to Eagle is a “youth thing”, the more we will delude ourselves by creating requirements for the sake of youth development (EDGE, bean counting nights and service hours, bookwork MBs etc ...) that youth will more than happily abandon in order to fulfill a vision of the pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with your mates.

I see no point in extending the age limit for that youth/adult boundary. Youth may be PLs etc..; adults, SMs etc ... there is something to be said for years of life lived defining your roles. And we now know that power relationships conferred by age can be greatly abused. So on that level, we are stuck with what we have.

[BlueandSilverBear]

55 minutes ago, SSScout said:

From  6 to 21 ?   Mustn't forget our Little Brothers and Sisters.   

Can start Lions at 5...

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

Do you have some sort of data that suggests that young adults are more likely to be sexual predators than older men? The articles I've seen on abuse in Scouting and the Catholic church doesn't seem to show that's a consistent trend. 

I agree.

A lot of new rules/restriction are being imposed.  We recently got a new rule that boys are not to remove their shirts.  No shirts and skins in basketball.  No changing shirts on the field. If a boy is wearing a sweatshirt underneath his uniform shirt, and it gets warm, he cannot just remove the sweatshirt.  He must go to the locker room to change.  

Things are getting Victorian.

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by David CO

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

I agree.

A lot of new rules/restriction are being imposed.  We recently got a new rule that boys are not to remove their shirts.  No shirts and skins in basketball.  No changing shirts on the field. If a boy is wearing a sweatshirt underneath his uniform shirt, and it gets warm, he cannot just remove the sweatshirt.  He must go to the locker room to change.  

Just wait. I see locker cubicles coming in the future.

 

[HICO_Eagle]

14 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As for academic credentials, I have been told that a national training director had 0 field experience, but a PhD in educational leadership.

That right there should have disqualified her from any position of responsibility if National wasn't so disconnected from reality.  I know some excellent PhDs but no one I've met with a PhD in "education" has seemed to know a dang thing about teaching.  Field experience should be the first and foremost thing they look for at National.  When you look at who gets selected for the Board or President positions in the past 15 or 20 years, it's almost like the organization wanted to destroy itself.

[ParkMan]

5 hours ago, qwazse said:

@ParkMan why would I start a 15 year old at Star who hasn’t mastered 1st Class? If a 12 year old masters 1st Class, why withhold work on Star?

But this is the critical distinction — the switch, if you will — that distinguishes BSA’s ascending first 6 decades from the declining latter 6: For a scout, what is rank (or as GBB put it in his handbook, a progress award)? 

• a set of skills that enables one to overcome the challenges of life and even forestall death, no matter when and at what station one masters those skills.
• a developmental track for teens and pre-teens to complement what they are not getting taught in school?

If the former, then it might be important for an ASM or SM age 19 or 59 to secure that foundation. If the latter, then that person-of-a-certain-age should leave the finger paints on grandma’s fridge and go tag a trestle.
My point is, the more we insist that the trail to Eagle is a “youth thing”, the more we will delude ourselves by creating requirements for the sake of youth development (EDGE, bean counting nights and service hours, bookwork MBs etc ...) that youth will more than happily abandon in order to fulfill a vision of the pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with your mates.

I see no point in extending the age limit for that youth/adult boundary. Youth may be PLs etc..; adults, SMs etc ... there is something to be said for years of life lived defining your roles. And we now know that power relationships conferred by age can be greatly abused. So on that level, we are stuck with what we have.

I'm not sure I'm following your point here.  In our society today it will be a hard argument to make that learning scouting skills will keep you from death.  While it is true, the prospect of someone leveraging these skills to save their life is 2020+ is very low.  In not saying it won't happen, but the spectre of death for most kids isn't something they think about.

That not withstanding.  No system is perfect.   We started discussing people 18 and over in Scouting and so I shared how I see it working.  Lumping a 20 year old with a 12 year old and saying "go camp" isn't going to happen.  So, the only way to have a Scouting program for those over 18 is to have their own program.  If you're going to do that, it makes sense to have graduated levels like they do in the UK.  Is it perfect - nope.  Is what we have now perfect - nope.  It's just an idea. 

Myself, in 2020, I'm game to take so e chances.  People are cruising Churchill because it's too safe - too traditional.  I agree.  So I'm willing to look at our core program, see what's working, and take some chances.

But - I was wrong to start this conversation in this great thread on history.

Edited November 25, 2020 by ParkMan
expanded the thought