The Boy Scouts In Crisis - A Historian's Perspective

[Eagle94-A1]

28 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

You should let the Council Commissioner and Council President know about abusive behavior from council employees as they can assure that such actions are corrected.  The SE and all local council staff are under the management of the local Executive Board. 

Does that work in your council? It has not in 2 of the councils I was in. One person yelled at by a pro was a member of the exec board. Nothing happened to the pro until COVID-19,  about 18 to 24 months later. 

[CynicalScouter]

10 minutes ago, yknot said:

Problems with possible embezzlement and CO involvement? No response or involvement from Council

Colonial Virginia Council was within 48 hours of bankruptcy and was forced to give up their camp AND headquarters after massive embezzlement by their S.E.

Did National lift a finger? Nope.

https://www.dailypress.com/news/gloucester/dp-nws-mid-boy-scouts-camp-closing-20160117-story.html

[vol_scouter]

35 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Does that work in your council? It has not in 2 of the councils I was in. One person yelled at by a pro was a member of the exec board. Nothing happened to the pro until COVID-19,  about 18 to 24 months later. 

My council would never need for it to go that far.  To date, all significant issues have been worked out without such drama since I have been involved at the council level (1994).  If an issue ever got to that point, it would be quickly addressed.  The SE's that we have had paid attention to the volunteers.  Not everything turned out like the volunteers have wished but there have always been solid factual reasons why it did not.

[TAHAWK]

4 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

You should let the Council Commissioner and Council President know about abusive behavior from council employees as they can assure that such actions are corrected.  The SE and all local council staff are under the management of the local Executive Board.  The President and Council Commissioner can contact other Board and Executive Committee members.  The local council is similar to the National Council but different at the same time.  The professional staff is there to serve Scouting and to help volunteers to deliver the program.

And when the SE is doing the yelling and screaming?  I.e., in the real world.  ?

 

I committed the ultimate sin of contacting the Council Commissioner to ask that RT Commissioners announce the need for staff for seven weeks of Scoutmaster training  at Summer Camp - training promised for years and never delivered - training I was asked to organize one month before the first week of camp.  

 

He seemed  perplexed about what Commissioners would have to do with training, if willing to "spread the word.,"  The SE was reportedly furious, and I was told by the  Council Training Chairman NEVER to contact any Council official or employee directly again on anything having to do with training.  How that would work,  given that cooperation with the Summer Camp staff was pretty much essential  for seven weeks,  was not part of the monologue. 

 

The Camp Director and Program Director, with whom I communicate directly (among others) several times a day for seven weeks, seemed to have been left out of the loop on the subject of  shunning.  They seemed very pleased to see the training taking place for a change, and told me so.. 

 

I, on the other paw, have not been asked by council for anything but money since, and our districts were deconstructed three years ago.

Edited November 30, 2020 by TAHAWK

[TAHAWK]

4 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

You should let the Council Commissioner and Council President know about abusive behavior from council employees as they can assure that such actions are corrected.  The SE and all local council staff are under the management of the local Executive Board.  The President and Council Commissioner can contact other Board and Executive Committee members.  The local council is similar to the National Council but different at the same time.  The professional staff is there to serve Scouting and to help volunteers to deliver the program.

Wood Badge 2009.  Five of us, including three Council EB members are on the way to be sure the showers are clean for the first weekend of the Course.  The Council Program Director at the time, who hung out at Camp rather than his office 25 miles away, brakes to a halt in a cloud of dust.  He exits his truck and informs us he is "tired" of our asking him for keys to the buildings to be used for the Course.  We are upsetting his schedule [watching movies in his office behind a locked door].  I allowed as how we usually had a set of keys in my prior experiences on WB Staff, and if we had a set we would be less of a bother.  He responded with some heat, "I am responsible for camp property.  Who knows what might happen if I gave out sets of keys  [to five Wood Badge Staff, including three Council Executive Board Members and two former members] ?

He was gone within the year- five years too late.  Few if any would work at camp so long as he was in charge.  His fourth Camp Program Director in four years had quit the first week of camp that last summer of his regime.  So many staff quit, that all the CITs were appointed "Merit Badge Counselors"  - fourteen-year-old Merit Badge Counselors - by the third, and last, week.  Some did not have the Merit Badge for which they were "Counselors."  Troops were vowing never to attend that camp again, including one that had attended thirty-seven consecutive years and another that had attended fifty-two years in a row (before the camp formally opened). (And those two troops have kept that commitment as of 2020.)  As a result, it seemed that even the minimum three weeks was out of the question if he had stayed.  FINALLY he was demoted to subordinate DE, and when that message failed, fired outright.  Under the new actual "professional" the Camp has had to build five new troop sites and was setting attendance records until COVID.   But that  pro has been promoted out of the job so it remains to be seen what is next.  Another litmus test:  Last year of the prior regime, not one staffer agreed to come back the next year.  First year of the actual pro, all staff signed up to return the next year, including two who returned from college to staff again.

See, there is still something there, if we can just get the leadership.  

[David CO]

17 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

The SE and all local council staff are under the management of the local Executive Board. 

That's what it says on paper.  In reality, the SE has more control over the council board members than they have on the SE.  

[vol_scouter]

4 hours ago, David CO said:

That's what it says on paper.  In reality, the SE has more control over the council board members than they have on the SE.  

Then the volunteers need to work with their Executive Committee and then the Executive Board.  You are right, David, that SE have more power than they can exert more influence than they actually have.  The reason is that the nominating committee works with the SE who wants people who will be supportive - as would any of us.  This is not nefarious but human nature.  Also, council executive boards have a number of community leaders as well as people who are active Scouters - all have to be registered volunteers.  The community leaders are only aware if an active Scouter makes them aware. 

David CO and Tahawk,

My council has been blessed to have active Scouters on the Executive Committee and Executive Board to guide the council.  We have had disagreements and things are sometimes bumpy but never as bad as poster on these forums.  It could take some time and effort but have meetings with EC and EB members and have a dialogue.  

Would not recommend those actions during the BSA in Chapter 11 that will likely affect councils and the COVID crisis that has devastated membership in most councils and closed camps (an income source) and other activities (also income sources).  The SE, staff, EC, and EB are very stressed and may not be as receptive as at other times.

Wish you good fortune in effecting changes.

[skeptic]

24 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Then the volunteers need to work with their Executive Committee and then the Executive Board.  You are right, David, that SE have more power than they can exert more influence than they actually have.  The reason is that the nominating committee works with the SE who wants people who will be supportive - as would any of us.  This is not nefarious but human nature.  Also, council executive boards have a number of community leaders as well as people who are active Scouters - all have to be registered volunteers.  The community leaders are only aware if an active Scouter makes them aware. 

David CO and Tahawk,

My council has been blessed to have active Scouters on the Executive Committee and Executive Board to guide the council.  We have had disagreements and things are sometimes bumpy but never as bad as poster on these forums.  It could take some time and effort but have meetings with EC and EB members and have a dialogue.  

Would not recommend those actions during the BSA in Chapter 11 that will likely affect councils and the COVID crisis that has devastated membership in most councils and closed camps (an income source) and other activities (also income sources).  The SE, staff, EC, and EB are very stressed and may not be as receptive as at other times.

Wish you good fortune in effecting changes.

The most important people to effect change actually are the COR's, but only if they actually do their jobs.  There have been incidences in some councils where a group of COR's rose up and got support of the majority and threw out an executive, or executives.  Unfortunately, most exec do not appear to want the COR's to understand their power.  Like I noted above, often the EB is put into closed session which normally is then not open to the full board which includes all the COR's.  However, those not allowed can still execute a coup of sorts with the right efforts by the right people.  Does not happen often, but it can.  I understand it happened in the GWC a long time back, and they threw out the Exec and his assistant.  I think that it was also COR's that made the Chicago area able to rise up against the camp issues, among other things.  

 

On 11/26/2020 at 10:17 AM, vol_scouter said:

4-H made a big push in STEM programming and grew by a couple of million.  It has been very successful and is meeting a large demand for STEM activities.  Both youth and their parents want more STEM programs.

 

IF that is the case, we may want to consider pushing that a bit more.  I do know the STEM merit badges at summer camp are fairly popular.  Other than the nature related ones that are also Eagle, the most popular one is Space Exploration.  They also have photography regularly and have done Electronics.  

But I wonder how we might integrate the idea of Stem Scouting into the program successfully, as I have not seen it come out of the introductory stage.  Maybe it just needs to be incorporated into the regular options, rather than being separated?

 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

I think that it was also COR's that made the Chicago area able to rise up against the camp issues, among other things.  

The COR's in Chicago didn't win.  At best it was a tie.  They did save the camp, but they lost control of the council to national (after national threatened to pull their charter if they didn't approve a hand-picked slate).  I thought they should have fought it out to the bitter end in federal court, but they didn't.  Sad.

Edited December 1, 2020 by David CO

[SSScout]

31 minutes ago, David CO said:

The COR's in Chicago didn't win.  At best it was a tie.  They did save the camp, but they lost control of the council to national (after national threatened to pull their charter if they didn't approve a hand-picked slate).  I thought they should have fought it out to the bitter end in federal court, but they didn't.  Sad.

Yep.   Search Owasippe here in Scouter dot com.  It was an adventure to read, for sure.  The CORs managed to wake alot of people up.  The local county zoning board managed to take control of their county and by refusing to rezone the property  in essence prevented the camp from becoming a lake resort.  But Chicago Council still managed to sell off two of their three camp properties before National pulled the strings.  I forget,  who got the profits there?   

The CORs are the voting corporate board of a council.  

[gpurlee]

You are correct that very few COR's recognize their power and their responsibility. Typically at our council's annual meeting only a handful of COR's attend out of the potential of a few hundred. I know that the United Methodist Church has begun to encourage COR training and involvement.  I was the guest at the Atlanta's council religious committee's training a couple of years ago. It is a combined effort of the Catholic and the UMC committees. They have an excellent training program for COR's along with numerous side sessions. We were hoping to replicate that in our council but the pandemic had other ideas.

[vol_scouter]

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

IF that is the case, we may want to consider pushing that a bit more.  I do know the STEM merit badges at summer camp are fairly popular.  Other than the nature related ones that are also Eagle, the most popular one is Space Exploration.  They also have photography regularly and have done Electronics.  

But I wonder how we might integrate the idea of Stem Scouting into the program successfully, as I have not seen it come out of the introductory stage.  Maybe it just needs to be incorporated into the regular options, rather than being separated?

 

Most summer camps find that STEM MBs are among the most popular elective MBs and often more popular than Eagle required ones.

Units can pursue the STEM Nova/Supernova awards.  They are straightforward.

Ideally, one can interject STEM into whatever they are doing.  Adults do not and should not have all of the answers so the questions that they ask, they do not need to have an answer but stimulate the youth to seek an answer.  So just ask questions about the world around us.

While cooking, ask what we are doing.  The answer would be chemistry.  Cooking is breaking bonds to soften the food and to change the taste.  Fire is chemistry.

What happens in lightning strikes?

Why is the sky blue?

How does a tree or plant get water and nutrients to the top of the plant?  How does that relate to the mechanism of a vacuum cleaner?

Why is star gazing the same as a time machine?

One can go on and on.  Why are some plants colorful and others not?

It can become a fun, friendly competition.

How does mathematics relate to knots?  Knots are part of the mathematical field of topology.

What is a meniscus and why does it happen?

These kind of exchanges can be done on the trail while resting, while waiting in line to do an activity, sitting around the campfire, or in the car on the way to or from an activity.

[Eagle94-A1]

One thing about 4-H, and least in my neck of the woods. 1) there is no registration costs, just costs for supplies and events and 2) You can do whatever interests you want under the 4-H umbrella as long as you have the volunteers to run that particular interest. HOWEVER once the volunteers are gone, that program ceases. Local 4-H has a multitude of programs: envirothon, electric club, shooting sports, leadership academy, ad nauseum.

 

No fee vs $75 fee PLUS council fees ( $100 in my neck of the woods) I can see why 4-H is growing and BSA is not.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Eagle94-A1

[qwazse]

7 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

One thing about 4-H, and least in my neck of the woods. 1) there is no registration costs, just costs for supplies and events and 2) You can do whatever interests you want under the 4-H umbrella as long as you have the volunteers to run that particular interest. HOWEVER once the volunteers are gone, that program ceases. Local 4-H has a multitude of programs: envirothon, electric club, shooting sports, leadership academy, ad nauseum.

 

No fee vs $75 fee PLUS council fees ( $100 in my neck of the woods) I can see why 4-H is growing and BSA is not.

A more parallel comparison, TL USA’s fees if I read correctly are $325 for troop initial charter, $99 plus $20 per youth when rechartering. Plus $26 per member (adult or youth).

[MattR]

The difference between 4H and scouting is the overhead in capital and labor. 4H has little and the BSA has an enormous amount. Properties and staffing are huge for a non profit. 4H sets up a stem program and it's a few documents of ideas for the youth. The bsa does it and it's millions of dollars poured into camps. Bechtel?

That said, camps used to be profit centers. It reminds me of college dorms. They used to be really cheap and students were okay with it. Now dorms are really nice and come with good food and activity centers. Well, now students are leaving colleges in droves. Community colleges are a much better deal. So, how does the BSA lower costs and still have fun stuff to do?  It's a fine line between too cheap and just right. Rather than pour money into toys I'd rather see a little money poured into teaching scouts how to create their own fun. 

Another thing 4H has is a definite project. Raise chickens or make a soap box car. I think the bsa could borrow that idea. Make fun MB's for a patrol to work on that takes around 3 months to complete. Something about working towards a final project rather than a patch sounds much more appealing to me.