The Boy Scouts In Crisis - A Historian's Perspective

[mrjohns2]

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

OA had lowered it's age requirements allowing very immature candidate to attend ordeal. The rules and methods and expectations of Ordeal were lowered so the more immature pre-pubescents scouts could progress through the weekend successfully. As a result, OA has lost the respect of being an organization of Top Quality Scouts. 

Can you point to when there was an age requirement and when it was lowered? Didn't we have this discussion before? 

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 hours ago, HICO_Eagle said:

My point is that we need to stop extending their youth. 

I understand the desire, but the science isn't there (pardon the phrase.)  I would advocate that we need to extend their youth.  We know that the brain is not fully formed, with the seat of executive function not being developed until about 25.

Historically, young men had to rise to the challenge earlier because of life expectancy.  That, and the needed skill set for a 15 year old to succeed was not as great or complex as it is today, imho.

As a commander in the military, guess which age cohort I dealt with incurred most judicial punishments, substances problems, domestic violence or assaults, and accidents???  18-25

Is this similar in the civilian world??  You bet...cannot even rent a car until you are 25!!

Edited November 25, 2020 by InquisitiveScouter

[Eagledad]

Just now, mrjohns2 said:

Can you point to when there was an age requirement and when it was lowered? Didn't we have this discussion before? 

No, it was during my early adulthood before I came back as an adult leader. And it might be that it was something local. But a scout had to be 14 to be eligible. Because they were selected by their peers, Arrowmen held higher respect than Eagles. Eagles was a personal thing. 

Barry

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

Arrowmen held higher respect than Eagles.

Concur, Barry.  OA has definitely lost its luster.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

It seems that threads that wander either discuss what went wrong or how to make it right. Lots of existential angst these days. That's why I'd really like some honest historical analysis. Sometimes I wonder if we're not just a bunch of blind men trying to understand an elephant.

You're close. The elephant is also blind.

Barry

[HICO_Eagle]

30 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I understand the desire, but the science isn't there (pardon the phrase.)  I would advocate that we need to extend their youth.  We know that the brain is not fully formed, with the seat of executive function not being developed until about 25.

Historically, young men had to rise to the challenge earlier because of life expectancy.  That, and the needed skill set for a 15 year old to succeed was not as great or complex as it is today, imho.

As a commander in the military, guess which age cohort I dealt with incurred most judicial punishments, substances problems, domestic violence or assaults, and accidents???  18-25

Is this similar in the civilian world??  You bet...cannot even rent a car until you are 25!!

That is precisely WHY they need help forming that brain early as teens and the coddling needs to stop.  I would argue the skill set needed for a 15 year old to succeed in 1865, 1929, or 1941 was greater and more complex than today.  We've been dumbing everything down for the last 30 years.  Teens today don't even try to remember simple things, thinking they can just Google it if they need info.  Youth in the past needed to know a wide variety of details and tasks (examples:  how to handle and care for animals, grow crops, make their own clothes and footgear, fix a broken wagon wheel, etc.).

I would note that 35 years ago, I could rent a car at the age of 18 or 19 simply by showing a valid driver's license and credit card.  Why has the age pushed out to 25?  IMO, it's because the 18-24 year olds have become increasingly less mature.

Getting back to the OP, he mentioned how Scouting dealt with its second crisis by bringing back Greenbar Bill.  We talk about this in the Patrol Method channel but it's worth repeating:  proper use of the patrol method with its emphasis on giving the Scouts responsibility for their own program and actions helps them develop into mature adults.  Doing things FOR them, extending the childhood, just delays that maturation (sometimes permanently).

One of the benefits of growing up in a troop that at times was the size of a single patrol (seriously, by the time you appointed SPL, ASPL, 2 PLs, 2 APLs, we had 2 or 3 Scouts left to populate the patrols) and part-time SMs was that the core group of 5 or 6 Scouts did virtually everything except the items needing an adult signature or driver.  We had to or we wouldn't have had any activities.  Out of that core group, I think 4 (maybe 5) of us made Eagle.

[Sentinel947]

36 minutes ago, HICO_Eagle said:

That is precisely WHY they need help forming that brain early as teens and the coddling needs to stop.  I would argue the skill set needed for a 15 year old to succeed in 1865, 1929, or 1941 was greater and more complex than today.  We've been dumbing everything down for the last 30 years.  Teens today don't even try to remember simple things, thinking they can just Google it if they need info.  Youth in the past needed to know a wide variety of details and tasks (examples:  how to handle and care for animals, grow crops, make their own clothes and footgear, fix a broken wagon wheel, etc.).

I would note that 35 years ago, I could rent a car at the age of 18 or 19 simply by showing a valid driver's license and credit card.  Why has the age pushed out to 25?  IMO, it's because the 18-24 year olds have become increasingly less mature.

Getting back to the OP, he mentioned how Scouting dealt with its second crisis by bringing back Greenbar Bill.  We talk about this in the Patrol Method channel but it's worth repeating:  proper use of the patrol method with its emphasis on giving the Scouts responsibility for their own program and actions helps them develop into mature adults.  Doing things FOR them, extending the childhood, just delays that maturation (sometimes permanently).

One of the benefits of growing up in a troop that at times was the size of a single patrol (seriously, by the time you appointed SPL, ASPL, 2 PLs, 2 APLs, we had 2 or 3 Scouts left to populate the patrols) and part-time SMs was that the core group of 5 or 6 Scouts did virtually everything except the items needing an adult signature or driver.  We had to or we wouldn't have had any activities.  Out of that core group, I think 4 (maybe 5) of us made Eagle.

Technology has made things significantly easier for people in general, not just Children. The life skills required to be an ADULT today is not as demanding as it was in the 1940's. If you have money, you can pay somebody to do most things for you.

Where I will disagree is that children are academically and socially under WAY more pressure than they were in decades past. I was studying things in High School my parents didn't take until they went to college, and I was definitely not as academically bright as they are. The competition for jobs and college acceptance is way more intense than it was historically. Where you could walk into a company, dressed nicely with a resume and get a job offer doing some sort of menial labor, that would at least pay enough to cover your basic needs... might have even had a pension! 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Sentinel947

[Eagle94-A1]

4 hours ago, HICO_Eagle said:

Yeah, it was late last night when I wrote that and I held off posting but yknot's post brought it back to mind and I neglected to QC.  I do recall we had an issue once where we couldn't put a newly graduated 18-year-old in as ASM, I think we had to put him in as the Advancement Chair or something like that until he turned 21.

I want to apologize for my snarky comment. I had just read a FB post stating that 18-20 year old ASMs serve no purpose in a troop. I am sick an tired of folks denigrating young adults, and I took out my frustration on you.

Regarding the brain  and development until age 25. Something that appears to be conveniently forgotten is that is that lifelong learners and folks starting new professions, basically anyone still learning stuff, has the same brain scan patterns as those under 25. If I can find the study's report, hopefully on PubMed Central, I will post the link. Unfortunately I no longer have access to the medical databases since I left the hosptial.

 

[qwazse]

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

...

@yknot, there's an article in either Scouting or Boys Life sometime in the 60's that codified the change in policy. We referenced it her once-upon-a-topic. If I stumble across it, I'll let you know.

I haven't nailed down the journal or volume, but here we discussed it four years ago:

And landed on a 1964/65 cut-off.

Edited November 25, 2020 by qwazse

[yknot]

50 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I haven't nailed down the journal or volume, but here we discussed it four years ago:

And landed on a 1964/65 cut-off.

 

Fascinating.  One adult Eagle's story from 1959, much later than 1948: 

... "Gallagher started as a Tenderfoot at the age of 38."  Perhaps this was regional? 

If this would encourage greater adult volunteer involvement,, support, and commitment, maybe it's not as crazy as it looks. It could have a special designation, such as Silver Eagle Scout. Again, I am just thinking in terms of what would help scouting survive, not what it means in a program sense. And here's where the contradiction comes into play for me: I don't agree at all with the way that the Eagle marquee has become monetized and marketed by BSA. I hate it, and I don't think it should be the point of scouting. However, it may be one of the few valuable assets a post bankruptcy BSA has left to help it rebuild.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by yknot

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I want to apologize for my snarky comment. I had just read a FB post stating that 18-20 year old ASMs serve no purpose in a troop. I am sick an tired of folks denigrating young adults, and I took out my frustration on you.

Regarding the brain  and development until age 25. Something that appears to be conveniently forgotten is that is that lifelong learners and folks starting new professions, basically anyone still learning stuff, has the same brain scan patterns as those under 25. 

I totally agree with you.  Young adults deserve greater respect than our society seems willing to give them.  I might also say the same of my middle school students.  With a few exceptions, I have found my students to be remarkably understanding, insightful, and kind.  Much more so than they are often given credit for.

It is true that brain development continues until about age 25.  This fact has important implications when discussing many health issues (like drug abuse).  I don't see how this makes them any less deserving of respect.  

I am at that point in life when my physical and mental abilities are on the downslope.  I don't think this fact should deprive me of any of the dignity and respect I enjoyed as a middle-aged adult.  Since I would not want less respect given to me as a senior citizen, I will not deny that respect to teenagers and young adults.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by David CO

[yknot]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

I totally agree with you.  Young adults deserve greater respect than our society seems willing to give them.  I might also say the same of my middle school students.  With a few exceptions, I have found my students to be remarkably understanding, insightful, and kind.  Much more so than they are often given credit for.

It is true than brain development continues until about age 25.  This fact has important implications when discussing many health issues (like drug abuse).  I don't see how this makes them any less deserving of respect.  

I am at that point in life when my physical and mental abilities are on the downslope.  I don't think this fact should deprive me of any of the dignity and respect I enjoyed as a middle-aged adult.  Since I would not want less respect given to me as a senior citizen, I will not deny that respect to teenagers and young adults.

 

I think this is an area worthy of discussion regarding how it may impact scouting going forward. Extended adolescence is an issue. Youth do seem less able to handle certain responsibility markers that prior generations were more adept with. However, youth today have greater and different pressures than older generations did. Just watching a 14 year old trying to navigate the virtual learning environment has been mind boggling for me. Can I depend on him to load the shotgun, hike 10 miles in snow, and bring back dinner? No. He'd be crying. Can I depend on him to figure out how to jury rig a hotspot when the internet goes down so he can still make class and I can work and bring home dinner? Yes. Different life skills, but just as responsible. 

[qwazse]

26 minutes ago, yknot said:

Fascinating.  One adult Eagle's story from 1959, much later than 1948: 

... "Gallagher started as a Tenderfoot at the age of 38."  Perhaps this was regional? 

If this would encourage greater adult volunteer involvement,, support, and commitment, maybe it's not as crazy as it looks. It could have a special designation, such as Silver Eagle Scout. Again, I am just thinking in terms of what would help scouting survive, not what it means in a program sense. And here's where the contradiction comes into play for me: I don't agree at all with the way that the Eagle marquee has become monetized and marketed by BSA. I hate it, and I don't think it should be the point of scouting. However, it may be one of the view valuable assets a post bankruptcy BSA has left to help it rebuild.

Definitely regional. Like most things with advancement, some councils set a particular tone, and eventually it was echoed nation-wide, until it was codified. (Which directly violates my Rule #1: Don't ask for a rule. You'll live to regret it.)

I personally don't see the need for a special designation. There aren't going to be a lot of adults who do go all the way to Eagle, which is already a "silver" award. They just get to be called Eagle Scouts like the rest of us. But, more to the point, we would strongly encourage everyone to be 1st Class Scouts. The patch would synchronize with the concept. Most every adult would make an effort to at least nail that. And yes, it's a shame BSA has oversold Eagle almost to the exclusion of this "middle" rank.

One side effect: there might be fewer youth who make Eagle because, lacking a deadline, the natural procrastinators will keep doing what they do. However, I think youth who see new adults (their moms and dads, even) struggling to master 1st Class skills will be inspired.

My experience is with renewing BSA Guard, it just gets harder to knock out those sprints every three years, and one particular year I came back defeated a couple of days in a row. That third day, the few scouts from my troop in the aquatics area cheered me on when I finally nailed it.

[PACAN]

Back to the OP...my 3 cents.

One major crisis early in the BSA was to get all the many splinter groups to agree to come into one organization, One being the Rhode Island Boy Scouts which still exists today as a trustee organization. 

Another crisis faced  (this will be requirement number one of the new DEI MB), was the pushback of the YMCA  to allow Catholics, Jews, Indians and "Negroes" and other ethnic and racial boys into the program.

In 1972 the BSA membership peaked at 6.5M youth.   What to do about this?  I know let's start the ISP.  I was part of a 50 Eagle Scout group who went to Schiff to evaluate this new program.  Everyone of us said it wouldn't work and we all know how that worked out.   Membership has never recovered and could fall below 1M at the end of 2020.

The 18 year old cap for Eagle was set in 1952 when they did a major overhaul of the MB program.  The BSA allowed those men who had gone off to WWII before they could finish their requirements to do so.  This requirement was essentially ignored until 1965 when the BSA added the Troop Warrant Officer and Eagle Project.  Since adults could not hold a troop youth position, that basically shut the door on adults although there were still councils who defied that.    The exception to 18 is for Youth with Disabilities for which there is no age limit.  The 18 year old cap is also since the BSA requirements are essentially written for 11-14 year olds.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

6 hours ago, HICO_Eagle said:

That is precisely WHY they need help forming that brain early as teens and the coddling needs to stop. 

HICO, you are fighting physiology there...the point is, that part of the brain isn't done growing in yet...they do not have the physical structures needed for that kind of "adult" thinking.  But, what we can do, is train them in the processes and form the habits of planning, forecasting, and leading.

 

5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding the brain  and development until age 25. Something that appears to be conveniently forgotten is that is that lifelong learners and folks starting new professions, basically anyone still learning stuff, has the same brain scan patterns as those under 25. If I can find the study's report, hopefully on PubMed Central, I will post the link. Unfortunately I no longer have access to the medical databases since I left the hosptial.

Eagle94, please do look for that!  I'd like to read that one (as a lifelong learner  )

 

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

One side effect: there might be fewer youth who make Eagle because, lacking a deadline, the natural procrastinators will keep doing what they do. However, I think youth who see new adults (their moms and dads, even) struggling to master 1st Class skills will be inspired.

Qwazse, right on!  Even BP said "

First-class Scout

A BOY does not really get the value of the Scout training until he is a First-class Scout. The Second-class is only a step to that standing. But it is a lamentable fact that a good many are content to remain as Second-class Scouts once they have gained a few badges of proficiency. It is for that reason, mainly, that the All Round Cords are now obtainable only by First-class Scouts. This move has been welcomed by Scoutmasters as giving an incentive to the lads to keep progressing in their training.

      Of course, the main objection to it is that it necessitates the boys learning to swim, and facilities for this do not exist in all centres. It has, therefore, been suggested in one or two cases that this rule should be relaxed. I am afraid that I have been very "sticky" about it, and although I generally make things as elastic as possible, I may have appeared unnaturally obstinate in this one particular; but I had reasons, and experience has now shown that those reasons were right.

      When a boy has become a First-class Scout -- but not before then -- he has got a grounding in the qualities, mental, moral, and physical, that go to make a good useful man. And I look on swimming as a very important step, combining as it does attributes of all three of those classes ? mentally it gives the boy a new sense of self-confidence and pluck; morally, it gives him the power of helping others in distress and puts a responsibility upon him of actually risking his life at any moment for others; and physically, it is a grand exercise for developing wind and limb.

      Every man ought to be able to swim; and in Norway and Sweden, the home of practical education, every boy and girl is taught swimming at school.

      The fact that swimming has got to be learnt by the Boy Scout before he can gain his first-class badge has had the effect of putting the character of the lads in very many cases to a hard and strengthening test.

      At first they complained that there was no place near where they could learn to swim. But when they found this was not accepted as an excuse, they set to work to make places or to get to where such places existed. I have heard of boys riding five miles on their bicycles day after day to swimming-baths; streams in many country places have been dammed up, and bathing-places made by the Scouts; the summer Camp has been established at some seaside or river-side spot for the special purpose of getting everyone trained in swimming.

      It can be done if everybody sets his mind to it. If the boys are put to extra trouble in bringing it about, so much the better for their character training. In any case, I look upon swimming as an essential qualification for First-class Scout, and for every man.   Also, I don't consider a boy is a real Scout till he has passed his first-class tests.

February, 1914.

(copied from http://usscouts.org/history/bpoutlook2.asp )