Update on new Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion MB

[Bowsprit]

40 minutes ago, Navybone said:

What part of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion would people disagree with?  They would disagree with the ideal of creating a culture that welcomes and respects diverse perspectives?   Do we not want Scouts to be an organization that creates a sense of belonging and builds communities where every person feels respected and valued?  Should scouts not denounces racism, discrimination, inequality and injustice? 

This is what BSA is saying when they talk about the principles behind the new Merit Badge.  And I would say that if a scout or a scouter does support all these principles, then they are not living up to the values of the Scout Law - Friendly, Curious, Kind, Brave.

That's a good and relevant question. You address the ideas of what divesity and inclusion are supposed to be, bit not Equity and how D and I support it in the context it is given.

Equity is the idea that everyone should get the same outcome regardless of their ability or effort. This is completely counter to equality of opportunity, as well as not possible to accomplish. For example, does BSA now give every kid an Eagle regardless of the effort they put in? No, and if they start the Eagle becomes valueless.

In this context "Diversity" is not what you described. It is a justification for Equity and takes the form of disfavoring individuality, which is how we teach scouts to see other people - as unique individuals - and replaces that with a concept of group identity so that some groups are 'oppressors' and others 'oppressed', which in turn gives direction to Equity in the form of moving resources such as jobs or tax dollars from members of one group to another.

Inclusion is not about including everyone, it is about choosing who to exclude - namely anyone who disagrees that Equity is a good idea. Inclusion is also about ensuring that ideas which are not supported by sound principles (such as Equity and other things we wouldn't consider "morally straight") are allowed into the culture rather than excluded.

Ultimately these are Marxist ideas, and Marxism is hugely contentious, mostly because the last 100 years proved these ideas result in millions of dead people. That's not trivial, therefore neither are the concerns about it.

[qwazse]

Well, since we have it on report that there is ZERO - not even a shred of - supremacy at play, it must be tongue-in-cheek.

That cafe that I mentioned is in a section of town well worth visiting, but one some of my scouts’ parents would never allow their boys to visit.

As far as I can tell, the most extreme of these boys are not overt aspiring Klansmen, like some of my high school classmates were. But they would cringe if they are offered an opportunity to read Dr. King’s speech on January 18th.

I honestly don’t care about anybody’s acronym or catch phrase. I just want the boys in my community to be brave enough to walk a few miles into a predominantly non-white neighborhood and have a decent bowl of gumbo. I want them to be mentally fit enough to learn whatever skill they desire from caring adults of any ethnic origin. And, I wouldn’t be bothered if they were kind enough to uplift someone of a race or creed other than theirs in the process.

So, I’m not fretting the details. If it looks like this MB will do that, I’ll get behind it. If it wrinkles, there’s so much more to scouting than earning Eagle.

[Bowsprit]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

I just want the boys in my community to be brave enough to walk a few miles into a predominantly non-white neighborhood and have a decent bowl of gumbo.

That's exactly right, total, 100% agreement. If this DEI badge is to teach these boys what DEI typically teaches we're talking about training derived from critical race theory. There is solid psychological evidence that CRT exaserbates racism and creates it where none previously existed. Of course we'll wait and see if this is the case with the MB, but with who is running BSA and the direction the org is going I'm not optimistic that it will be something different.

Parents who don't want their kids going in certain neighborhoods may have other reasons besides race for making such rules. Chances are most of them remember the 90's crime wave and their memories of what happened in certain parts of town rather than race is what colors their perception. I know many a "woke" person who feels that way exactly. Some have been teaching their kids never to buy pot in certain neighborhoods.

[Navybone]

4 hours ago, Bowsprit said:

 

Equity is the idea that everyone should get the same outcome regardless of their ability or effort.

In this context "Diversity" is not what you described. It is a justification for Equity and takes the form of disfavoring individuality, which is how we teach scouts to see other people - as unique individuals - and replaces that with a concept of group identity so that some groups are 'oppressors' and others 'oppressed', which in turn gives direction to Equity in the form of moving resources such as jobs or tax dollars from members of one group to another.

Inclusion is not about including everyone, it is about choosing who to exclude - namely anyone who disagrees that Equity is a good idea. Inclusion is also about ensuring that ideas which are not supported by sound principles (such as Equity and other things we wouldn't consider "morally straight") are allowed into the culture rather than excluded.

Ultimately these are Marxist ideas, and Marxism is hugely contentious, mostly because the last 100 years proved these ideas result in millions of dead people. That's not trivial, therefore neither are the concerns about it.

I do not even know where to start.  Equity is not the idea that everyone should get the same outcome.  Wherever you got your definition, it is a corruption of the idea of fairness and having an opportunity - as in everyone should have the same opportunity.  Same with your definition of inclusion and diversity.   

BSA has pretty much already articulated what their intent is and how it is absolutely inline with scouting.  There is nothing Marxist (or socialist, or communist).   And if BSA was turning  into a Marxist organization where everyone is made Eagle, I would think adding a new requirement might be the last thing they would do.  Don’t you think they would eliminate requirements....

 

[Navybone]

1 hour ago, Bowsprit said:

If this DEI badge is to teach these boys what DEI typically teaches we're talking about training derived from critical race theory.

There is nothing to indicate the CRT is what the badge will be based on. Maybe an open mind?  

[Bowsprit]

7 hours ago, Navybone said:

I do not even know where to start.  Equity is not the idea that everyone should get the same outcome.  Wherever you got your definition, it is a corruption of the idea of fairness and having an opportunity - as in everyone should have the same opportunity.

 

No, that's equality of opportunity. Equity is very different. I know this seems like splitting hairs, but it is important to properly define the key issue of topic if we're going to discuss it.

"The terms equality and equity are often used interchangeably; however, they differ in important ways. Equality is typically defined as treating everyone the same and giving everyone access to the same opportunities. Meanwhile, equity refers to proportional representation (by race, class, gender, etc.)"

It is in fact a Marxist idea, one that has become increasingly popular among people who don't know it is a Marxist idea because they think Equity is a synonym for Equality of opportuinity, the same way you do. Originally Marxism was all about class, but this grew to include any potentially divisive "identity" group in the 60's and 70's.

The allure of Marxism is that it sounds like everything people say they want, prosperity for all, fair treatment, etc. The effect of Marxism on a population, it turns out, is the exact opposite. But this appeal, being a natural human desire, is intentionally used to lead people in a Marxist direction without the Marxists typically telling those people where they are being led. You see, Lenin's tactics were effective enough to be used around the world and proven to be more effective the more ignorant a population was about Marxism, hence the common term Leninist-Marxist to describe those who use them.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Bowsprit
Make more respectful

[Bowsprit]

7 hours ago, Navybone said:

There is nothing to indicate the CRT is what the badge will be based on. Maybe an open mind?  

Hence why I said we need to wait and see, with the caveat that I am not optimistic about it.

[TAHAWK]

EQUAL OPPORTUNITY VS GUARANTEED EQUAL OUTCOME (EVERY YOUTH AN EAGLE).

[BQZip]

20 hours ago, Navybone said:

What part of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion would people disagree with?  They would disagree with the ideal of creating a culture that welcomes and respects diverse perspectives?   Do we not want Scouts to be an organization that creates a sense of belonging and builds communities where every person feels respected and valued? 

Let's start with the "equity" portion.

Equity is an impossible goal to achieve. No matter how we strive we will never achieve equal outcomes. The goal of "equity" is a myth, an impossible achievement cooked up by Marxists/Postmodernists. We will ALL make choices in our lives that result in fortunate/unfortunate outcomes. In the US, the VAST majority of what we achieve is due to our personal choices, not the opinions of others.

DEI philosophy is not merely "creating a culture that welcomes and respects diverse perspectives" or "creating a sense of belonging and build communities where every person feels respected and valued". If that's all it was, I'd be fine with it and no one in their right mind would oppose it. Should scouts not denounces racism, discrimination, inequality and injustice?

You keep posing this question as if it is a neutral topic and people have repeatedly explained that the issue is not general definition of the words " Diversity" and "Inclusion". No one in their right mind is against that. The problem is the application of these topics, the material surrounding it, and the methods by which we achieve those laudable goals; they are highly slanted with leftist propaganda.

I don't disagree with diversity as a laudable goals as long as they aren't at the cost of our values or mission. Example: If we utilize funds to recruit more POC, I'm all for it, but if we do so by shuttering camps and reducing opportunities for everyone, then we've gone too far. There is a balance between these.

 

22 hours ago, Navybone said:

Should scouts not denounces racism, discrimination, inequality and injustice? 

Denounce racism? Absolutely!

Denounce injustice? Sure! Let's start with BSA categorizing the deaths of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd as "murder" when one was not and the other is (at a bare minimum) under some dispute. We can neutrally state with complete confidence that we want justice to be served without taking sides in a matter or inflaming hostilities.

Denounce inequality? Probably, but that depends on what you mean. If you mean equality of opportunity, solid "yes" from me. If you mean equality of outcome, that's a hard "no"; it's an impossibility. There will NEVER be equal outcomes no matter what.

Denounce discrimination? That depends. We discriminate ethically and legally all the time. That guy that offers you a deal of a lifetime? Yeah, we're reasonably skeptical. That Nigerian Prince in your email? Yeah...hard pass. You say "that's not what I'm talking about and you know it!", well, it really isn't that simple. Obviously we talk about discrimination based on race as being something pretty much everyone is against, but what about discrimination based on ability? Is it reasonable to expect that we have all camps and high adventure modified so that someone in a wheelchair can attend? There are some who believe this should be the case. So, in general, yes, I denounce discrimination, but within reason.

21 hours ago, Navybone said:

This is what BSA is saying when they talk about the principles behind the new Merit Badge.  And I would say that if a scout or a scouter does support all these principles, then they are not living up to the values of the Scout Law - Friendly, Curious, Kind, Brave.

I'm sorry, but no. Blind adherence to terms that are vaguely defined and can mean a WIDE range of things is NOT what scouts are part of. Again, if we are talking general terms, then yes, we're on the same page AND there's no opposition. However, the trend (from "Diversity and Inclusion" to "Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion") seems to indicate a movement toward mandating the teaching of "check your privilege", promoting "anti-racism" , fixing "systemic racism", and a host of leftist mantras. Teaching that America's core principles are "racist" is both absurd and, by definition, antiAmerican. while it's true America was indeed founded during times of racism and oppression, that was the world they lived in. It isn't a reflection of America or its ideals.

 

[BQZip]

17 hours ago, Navybone said:

I do not even know where to start.  Equity is not the idea that everyone should get the same outcome.

Equity is a KEY component of critical race theory. Anything short of an equal start (which is impossible as everyone doesn't have the same life experiences) is discrimination and falls short of "equity". Offering some event to everyone regardless of race, gender, etc is not enough. You have to correct for all disparities or it isn't "equity".

[TAHAWK]

4 hours ago, BQZip said:

Equity is a KEY component of critical race theory. Anything short of an equal start (which is impossible as everyone doesn't have the same life experiences) is discrimination and falls short of "equity". Offering some event to everyone regardless of race, gender, etc is not enough. You have to correct for all disparities or it isn't "equity".

So no one "starts" "equal, ' as you say,  and, thus "equity, "a KEY component of critical race theory" is "impossible,. as you say.  That being agreed, your "critical race theory' is an illusion - a slogan divorced from reality - an excuse for throwing responsibility for the inevitably unequal outcomes, on someone(s) other than the individuals themselves.   If you speak for BSA, we owe you sincere thanks.  You have explained the evil we must utterly crush.  

"On my honor,  I will do my best ....."

"A Scout is ...."

"Discrimination," by the way, is largely legal and ethical.  It is through discrimination that we do not voluntarily  contribute to the funds to pay "leaders" who produce bad results for the organization, as baseball teams discriminate against "every day" players who cannot hit a breaking ball.  

[Armymutt]

I have major issues with BSA actively entering the political arena.  By mentioning B. Taylor, they have gone way beyond selling war bonds and into anti-police propaganda.  That is something that they can't take back.  I don't think that scouts should actively engage in any social issues.  That's not our role.  We should be role models for society through our actions, not our words.  I don't like forced anything - it reeks of insincerity.  If your troop/pack is open to anyone who wants to join up and participate in this organization, then that's all that should be required.  We are probably one of the most open organizations on the planet.  We have published a book for 110 years that explains who we are and what we believe.  While society may have interpreted it in various ways for us through time, the core has not faltered.  Some of this stuff sounds awfully close to bussing.  I think that kids in Scouting will get enough diversity training in their lives.  Adding in a merit badge does sound a lot like school.  The equity thing is a very loaded term.  While its focus on equal outcome is debated, it's focus on unequal assistance is not debatable.  It goes beyond accommodation for physical handicaps and into social condition.  Scouting is all about improving one's lot in life through your own efforts.  What does this equity look like in the MB?  Lowering a standard because of where a Scout lives?  Would anyone accept requiring fewer hikes from Scouts in NYC vs one from rural NC?  One big issue is the "lens" one is required, or tends, to adopt with DEI and CRT.  It's like having just a hammer in your tool box.  I'm currently in a masters program that is heavy in "anti-racism" (as if there is a significant "pro-racism" sector of society).  One lecture literally told the students that the hog farms in eastern NC were established out of racism.  They showed a slide of the slave population locations in 1860 and one of the hog farm sites from 2019.  They did not mention the tobacco buyout in the 1990s.  They didn't mention that these farms were converted from tobacco to hogs because the terrain was perfectly suited for them, nor that these farms had been in these families for generations.  The story sold to these kids is that these farms were sited in these locations because black people lived there.  That is a shameful tactic in my book.

[BQZip]

3 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

So no one "starts" "equal, ' as you say,  and, thus "equity, "a KEY component of critical race theory" is "impossible,. as you say.  That being agreed, your "critical race theory' is an illusion - a slogan divorced from reality - an excuse for throwing responsibility for the inevitably unequal outcomes, on someone(s) other than the individuals themselves.   If you speak for BSA, we owe you sincere thanks.  You have explained the evil we must utterly crush.  

"On my honor,  I will do my best ....."

"A Scout is ...."

"Discrimination," by the way, is largely legal and ethical.  It is through discrimination that we do not voluntarily  contribute to the funds to pay "leaders" who produce bad results for the organization, as baseball teams discriminate against "every day" players who cannot hit a breaking ball.  

You misread my statement...I agree with you. My comments are CRITICAL of CRT, not supportive.

[Navybone]

On 11/27/2020 at 3:34 AM, Bowsprit said:

No, that's equality of opportunity. Equity is very different. I know this seems like splitting hairs, but it is important to properly define the key issue of topic if we're going to discuss it.

"The terms equality and equity are often used interchangeably; however, they differ in important ways. Equality is typically defined as treating everyone the same and giving everyone access to the same opportunities. Meanwhile, equity refers to proportional representation (by race, class, gender, etc.)"

It is in fact a Marxist idea, one that has become increasingly popular among people who don't know it is a Marxist idea because they think Equity is a synonym for Equality of opportuinity, the same way you do. Originally Marxism was all about class, but this grew to include any potentially divisive "identity" group in the 60's and 70's.

The allure of Marxism is that it sounds like everything people say they want, prosperity for all, fair treatment, etc. The effect of Marxism on a population, it turns out, is the exact opposite. But this appeal, being a natural human desire, is intentionally used to lead people in a Marxist direction without the Marxists typically telling those people where they are being led. You see, Lenin's tactics were effective enough to be used around the world and proven to be more effective the more ignorant a population was about Marxism, hence the common term Leninist-Marxist to describe those who use them.

That is one definition from a scholarly article. Not the normal definition by any means.  Another is the definition Ford uses when they discuss diversity, equity, and inclusion.  And Ford is not a Marxist company.

”Equity seeks to ensure fair treatment, equality of opportunity, and fairness in access to information and resources for all. We believe this is only possible in an environment built on respect and dignity.”

fair treatment, equal opportunity, and fairness are consistent with how BSA operates and the scout law and oath.  There is no reason to believe this definition is not consistent with the BSAs approach to equity.  There is nothing to suggest that the BSA would suddenly  adopt a Marxist philosophy regarding scouting.  

[TAHAWK]

17 hours ago, BQZip said:

You misread my statement...I agree with you. My comments are CRITICAL of CRT, not supportive.

So I understood.  Hence the "UPVOTE."  Again, " sincere thanks."