Update on new Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion MB

[ParkMan]

44 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

You need to be more specific. What hurtful/offensive language?  If I hurt your feelings because I challenged your world view, you need to grow up.

Using racial slurs like "black sister" or "male cracker" in reference to degrading the comradeship of seven white boys is what I am referring to.

You have in no way, shape, form or fashion hurt my feelings.  You have not challenged my world view at all and I am simply talking about basic human decency.  I speak out because it is the correct thing to speak out when people start using racial slurs in the name of Scouting.  Scouting is about "to help other people at all times" and "Friend, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful".  Knock it off.

47 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

Hah!  It will get better if we don't talk about it?  The debate is over?  I reject your basic premise and what's more, with that line of persuasion; so do the boys.  

By making this merit badge Eagle required, BSA is elevating 'Diversity' and 'Inclusion' to the level of the 12 Scout Law tenets.  For 100 years, the Scout Law was inviolate to the troops.  Now the political winds change and suddenly we're adding virtues?  Maybe those first 12 were not so important, after all.  Oh wait; hasn't 'Reverent" been blown away, too?

You want to debate this merit badge - that's fine.  But, do not do it by using racial slurs and claiming to do so in the name of Scouting.

[yknot]

3 hours ago, JoeBob said:

And furthermore...

If you try to degrade the quality of comradeship of seven white boys on a patrol campout, because they have no blacks or females; you are lost.  Would you try to argue that seven black sisters would improve their esprit de corps by adding a male cracker to their campfire? 

 

 

You are like in the 1980s. I don't even know where to begin with you lol. 

[BQZip]

2 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I'm just amazed that on a forum about Scouting we are really having some sort of debate on whether diversity and inclusion is a good thing.  This isn't a discussion about some political belief or taking sides, it's just a discussion about whether we want to encourage everyone to come Scout with us.  Isn't that kind of the whole point of the Oath and Law?  I'm utterly confused.

You're "confused" because you are fighting back against something that wasn't said

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, BQZip said:

You're "confused" because you are fighting back against something that wasn't said

 

Sorry that I mis-interpreted what you wrote.  I saw this post:  

22 hours ago, BQZip said:

Over 2 years ago, PragerU posted a video which warned of the dangers of the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion philosophy.
https://www.prageru.com/video/dangerous-people-are-teaching-your-kids/

In short:
"Diversity" doesn't mean "a wide ranging group of ideas". It means "increased influence by people more generally aligned with leftist ideals" (usually from groups that deem themselves "oppressed")
"Equity" doesn't mean equal opportunity (a laudable goal!), but is instead a focus on equal outcomes, something NO society has EVER come close to achieving. Anything short of it is "evidence" of discriminatory bias; the choices that people make that cause most of these inequities (not all) are merely byproducts of more discrimination.
"Inclusion" doesn't mean "be open to others joining your group". Instead it generally focuses on identity based quotas in order to achieve the aforementioned malformed concept of equity.

Recently (yesterday?), BSA released a video regarding a new Merit Badge: the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Merit badge...if that doesn't raise a red flag, I'm not sure what does.

https://vimeo.com/476454128?fbclid=IwAR2EfbOR-YLmhoDdKVztS0SpP73fJuEK49iua3_xiPJ7ps_VDDxcCDO4vYI

I will grant you, they have NOT released the requirements for the MB, but the title and video content alone should be alarming. The video does nothing to dispel such alarm.

This is an attempt to appease the leftists in our society. Appeasement NEVER works. They will only demand more. Despite claiming the material will be taught in an "apolitical manner", its title alone makes me question that assertion. Making such a hyperpolitical concept a REQUIREMENT for Eagle Scout Rank is more than absurd, it's pushing a political agenda.
Unless this is a poorly phrased title and the video doesn't match the content of the Merit Badge (which doesn't appear likely), I call on all friends of Scouting to speak up and say "no" at your next Roundtable. This top-down directed Merit Badge is an attempt to usurp Councils/Units without input from the scouting community at large and dictate political correctness.

and this:

22 hours ago, BQZip said:

Over 2 years ago, PragerU posted a video which warned of the dangers of the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion philosophy.
https://www.prageru.com/video/dangerous-people-are-teaching-your-kids/

In short:
"Diversity" doesn't mean "a wide ranging group of ideas". It means "increased influence by people more generally aligned with leftist ideals" (usually from groups that deem themselves "oppressed")
"Equity" doesn't mean equal opportunity (a laudable goal!), but is instead a focus on equal outcomes, something NO society has EVER come close to achieving. Anything short of it is "evidence" of discriminatory bias; the choices that people make that cause most of these inequities (not all) are merely byproducts of more discrimination.
"Inclusion" doesn't mean "be open to others joining your group". Instead it generally focuses on identity based quotas in order to achieve the aforementioned malformed concept of equity.

Recently (yesterday?), BSA released a video regarding a new Merit Badge: the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Merit badge...if that doesn't raise a red flag, I'm not sure what does.

https://vimeo.com/476454128?fbclid=IwAR2EfbOR-YLmhoDdKVztS0SpP73fJuEK49iua3_xiPJ7ps_VDDxcCDO4vYI

I will grant you, they have NOT released the requirements for the MB, but the title and video content alone should be alarming. The video does nothing to dispel such alarm.

This is an attempt to appease the leftists in our society. Appeasement NEVER works. They will only demand more. Despite claiming the material will be taught in an "apolitical manner", its title alone makes me question that assertion. Making such a hyperpolitical concept a REQUIREMENT for Eagle Scout Rank is more than absurd, it's pushing a political agenda.
Unless this is a poorly phrased title and the video doesn't match the content of the Merit Badge (which doesn't appear likely), I call on all friends of Scouting to speak up and say "no" at your next Roundtable. This top-down directed Merit Badge is an attempt to usurp Councils/Units without input from the scouting community at large and dictate political correctness.

and others and misunderstood.  I took what you wrote as believing that diversity and inclusion was some sort of leftist political agenda.  I didn't think diversity was even controversial in 2020.

But - since you're pointed out that you are in fact in favor of diversity and inclusion, clearly I've misread what you wrote.  My deepest apologies for misinterpreting all of that and am happy to stipulate that I was wrong.  I am happy that you're on board with having a diverse, inclusive Scouting community and helping encourage our Scouts to be welcoming of all backgrounds.  Thank you for clarifying!

Edited November 21, 2020 by ParkMan
clarified a thought

[BQZip]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Sorry that I mis-interpreted what you wrote.  I saw this post:  

and this:

and others and misunderstood.  I took what you wrote as believing that diversity and inclusion was some sort of leftist political agenda.  I didn't think diversity was even controversial in 2020.

You are (intentionally?) conflating two separate things.

My comments were about the "Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion philosophy" and the issues I see with it, not diversity or inclusion as standalone terms. Wanting to have a wide-spanning, cross-cultural American organization is not bad. Wanting to be inclusive of people from every walk of life is fine a fine and laudable goal as well. I think we should invest time and effort and resources in recruiting in areas beyond traditional Scouting havens like the inner cities and rural America. It is the methods by which this is attempted to be achieved that are problematic: quotas, affirmative action, etc; all methods that have failed for quality in the past beyond anything other than checking boxes (example: in academics, underqualified students were admitted and later dropped out because they didn't have the requisite academic skills). "Diversity and inclusion" are indeed being used as cover in Academia to push radical leftist agendas and it is creeping into Corporate America.

While the language used by another prior poster was not the best, why is a troop of 40 white and Hispanic scouts not as "good" as one of 25 white and Hispanic scouts and 15 black scouts? You cannot judge the quality of a troop based on diversity. Individuals and their choices matter. Perhaps they all just live in the same area!

This is similar to the semantic overload of "Black Lives Matter". It has 3 meanings:

1. Like every life, the lives of black people matter. This is uncontroversial.
2. The movement of BLM which ranges from mostly peaceful protests to vandalism to assaults to riots
3. The BLM organization which is run by self-proclaimed Marxists

Pretending opposition to one of these (or even part of one of these) is the same as opposition to all of them is absurd, but the term is designed with this in mind.

Another example is Antifa or Anti-Fascists (who are ironically engaging in acts of fascism). If you oppose them, they will accuse you of being anti-anti-fascist and, therefore, a fascist.

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

But - since you're pointed out that you are in fact in favor of diversity and inclusion, clearly I've misread what you wrote.  My deepest apologies for misinterpreting all of that and am happy to stipulate that I was wrong.  I am happy that you're on board with having a diverse, inclusive Scouting community and helping encourage our Scouts to be welcoming of all backgrounds.  Thank you for clarifying!

Assuming you aren't being facetious (which I suspect you actually are), apology accepted.

Edited November 21, 2020 by BQZip

[ParkMan]

6 hours ago, BQZip said:

You are (intentionally?) conflating two separate things.

My comments were about the "Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion philosophy" and the issues I see with it, not diversity or inclusion as standalone terms. Wanting to have a wide-spanning, cross-cultural American organization is not bad. Wanting to be inclusive of people from every walk of life is fine a fine and laudable goal as well. I think we should invest time and effort and resources in recruiting in areas beyond traditional Scouting havens like the inner cities and rural America. 

Great - thanks for the clarification.  Then I did misread the intent behind your statements.  Yes - all I'm really talking about is having Scouting be a place where everyone is welcome and made to feel comfortable.  Glad you are on board with that.  And yes, given that you are, I am sorry I suggested otherwise.

6 hours ago, BQZip said:

While the language used by another prior poster was not the best, why is a troop of 40 white and Hispanic scouts not as "good" as one of 25 white and Hispanic scouts and 15 black scouts? You cannot judge the quality of a troop based on diversity. Individuals and their choices matter. Perhaps they all just live in the same area!

All I can ask is that everyone is truly welcoming to all who want to join, truly goes out of their way to understand what makes everyone comfortable, and embraces all their neighbors.  I would hope that every Scout, adult volunteer, and unit looks at themself and asks "am I truly welcoming my fellow person?"

6 hours ago, BQZip said:

It is the methods by which this is attempted to be achieved that are problematic: quotas, affirmative action, etc; all methods that have failed for quality in the past beyond anything other than checking boxes (example: in academics, underqualified students were admitted and later dropped out because they didn't have the requisite academic skills). "Diversity and inclusion" are indeed being used as cover in Academia to push radical leftist agendas and it is creeping into Corporate America.

[...]

This is similar to the semantic overload of "Black Lives Matter". It has 3 meanings:

1. Like every life, the lives of black people matter. This is uncontroversial.
2. The movement of BLM which ranges from mostly peaceful protests to vandalism to assaults to riots
3. The BLM organization which is run by self-proclaimed Marxists

Pretending opposition to one of these (or even part of one of these) is the same as opposition to all of them is absurd, but the term is designed with this in mind.

Another example is Antifa or Anti-Fascists (who are ironically engaging in acts of fascism). If you oppose them, they will accuse you of being anti-anti-fascist and, therefore, a fascist.

I'm not going to delve in here because I really don't have any interest in making this political.  If anything, I would only suggest that we all really listen to those we oppose and work to understand what their real beliefs are.  Because America has such a strong two party system, we often get lined up behind one group or the other.  Just as I suggest that we have diversity in race, gender, and culture - so too do I encourage diversity in opinion.  And so, to that end I really don't want to engage in a progressive vs. conservative battle about the politics of race myself.  If others want to, the are welcome to.  I just hope that we can do it without hurtful labels and speech.

[BQZip]

7 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Great - thanks for the clarification.  Then I did misread the intent behind your statements.  Yes - all I'm really talking about is having Scouting be a place where everyone is welcome and made to feel comfortable.  Glad you are on board with that.  And yes, given that you are, I am sorry I suggested otherwise.

Likewise.

7 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Just as I suggest that we have diversity in race, gender, and culture - so too do I encourage diversity in opinion. 

Which is all I'm looking for.

But by the chosen phrasing, I fear that this is NOT what we are seeing. If "white privilege"/"check your privilege" or "systemic racism" is brought up as a given fact they have to learn about, then we are in an unnecessary fight.

BSA has already put out a press release supporting BLM and IMMEDIATELY turned off all commenting. They stated "We condemn the murders of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor..." Taylor's death was NOT murder and George Floyd's death is under dispute. We should NOT be involving ourselves in these matters with such definitive declarations. Instead, we should support the rule of law and ask that justice be served in each of these cases. We can certainly show empathy for the loss of life and strive to ensure that people are held accountable for their actions as well as potentially changing procedures to further minimize loss of life.

[BQZip]

Naturally, comments are disabled now on the video.

They aren't looking for feedback or consensus, but to push it forward regardless of opinion.

Edited November 23, 2020 by BQZip

[Bowsprit]

BSA is nuts to make this badge required. The issue is part of one which has the US bitterly divided and has zero chance of attracting more scouts to replace those who leave or are pulled out by their parents. This "like it or leave" stuff can fly in a company where people rely on employment to get paid, but not in an organization dependent on volunteers who pay for the privilege. Oh, and in other news, costs are going up again. Whether or not we individually agree or disagree is besides the point, a hefty chunk of scouts won't be coming back because of forced idealogy like this. It's like BSA is trying to suicide the organisation.

[scoutldr]

The beatings will continue until morale improves.  

[qwazse]

Not coming back? I can tell my little supremacists that they don’t have to earn the badge, stop chasing bling, and look at the trail map and plan our next hike ... preferably to a cafe I know that serves the best gumbo in town.

[Bowsprit]

19 hours ago, qwazse said:

Not coming back? I can tell my little supremacists that they don’t have to earn the badge, stop chasing bling, and look at the trail map and plan our next hike ... preferably to a cafe I know that serves the best gumbo in town.

Maybe you were being tongue in cheek. If not, are they supremacists because they are not being taught the DEI ideology or because someone is teaching them to be supremacists? Plenty of people who disagree with DEI who have not a shred of supremacist feelings in them, and plenty who think anyone who disagrees with the DEI package as commonly understood must by definition be a supremacist of some sort. And BSA want to insert themselves into this mess.

Based on what we saw with NBA ratings and what we know of BSA's financial situation this is likely going to be very painful for the organization. You are right, it won't keep anyone from hiking, camping, or learning about anything scouts get to do outside of scouting if BSA closes a bunch of troops, camps, and/or counsils. It won't keep parents from teaching their kids proper values either.

[Navybone]

1 hour ago, Bowsprit said:

Maybe you were being tongue in cheek. If not, are they supremacists because they are not being taught the DEI ideology or because someone is teaching them to be supremacists? Plenty of people who disagree with DEI who have not a shred of supremacist feelings in them, and plenty who think anyone who disagrees with the DEI package as commonly understood must by definition be a supremacist of some sort. And BSA want to insert themselves into this mess.

 

What part of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion would people disagree with?  They would disagree with the ideal of creating a culture that welcomes and respects diverse perspectives?   Do we not want Scouts to be an organization that creates a sense of belonging and builds communities where every person feels respected and valued?  Should scouts not denounces racism, discrimination, inequality and injustice? 

This is what BSA is saying when they talk about the principles behind the new Merit Badge.  And I would say that if a scout or a scouter does support all these principles, then they are not living up to the values of the Scout Law - Friendly, Curious, Kind, Brave.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Navybone

[CynicalScouter]

22 minutes ago, Navybone said:

What part of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion would people disagree with?

You'd be surprised. For a good many people "diversity" and "equity" translates into "oppress white people."

While OVERALL the nation is more accepting of diversity, there is a very large segment that rejects it.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/01/americans-are-more-positive-about-the-long-term-rise-in-u-s-racial-and-ethnic-diversity-than-in-2016/

Moreover, the question will be how it is delivered.

Ask some folks and they are prepared for this to turn into some kind of Maoist forced struggle sessions where white, male scouts are told to feel guilty for their transgressions and must publicly renounce their "crime" of "white privilege."

Even MENTIONING the idea racial privilege is going to set some leaders, adults, and parents off.

Until we know what is in this MB, I am withholding any and all judgement.

.

[scoutldr]

As you pointed out the obvious, those values were already in the Scout Law.  Was it suddenly not adequate after 110 years?  Perhaps we should fix that, rather than force-feeding a new required merit badge.  I have been in Scouting since 1963.  I have seen a lot of change, and not all good.  Some was change for the sake of change ... solutions in search of problems, like Urban Scouting of the late 70s.  Society changes, and Scouting needs to decide what it wants to be.  It is not all things for all people, nor should we try to be.  We once had a SS Ship that was all Muslim.  Were they forced to be inclusive and welcoming?  No.  That would be politically incorrect.  I remember when the only job a female volunteer could hold was Den Mother.  That changed as society changed.  Now women can be Boy Scouts and Brotherhood Arrowmen.  I was a member of an Explorer Post that welcomed the first female Explorers.  Did it work?  Sure...but what went on after Taps would have given the YP police a stroke.  I just completed a 40+ year career in the federal government.  I can't tell you how many times we were all herded into the auditorium for "mandatory training" because someone hurt someone's feelings, or dared to tell the truth and rate someone honestly on the quality of their work.  An honest appraisal was considered "insensitive".  I was even called a racist because the lowest graded individual in the Command was a minority.  The fact that he had a low IQ, refused to take training offered to improve his skills, refused to even apply for higher graded positions with greater responsibility, was immaterial...it was OBVIOUSLY racial discrimination.  You can't provide "equity" if someone refuses to accept it.  Likewise, if someone wants to partake of Scouting and all it has to offer, they are welcomed with open arms, in my experience.  BUT...we should not be forced to alter our program because it doesn't appeal to all equally, just as the Muslim unit was not required to change theirs.