Update on new Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion MB

[ParkMan]

29 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

I think diversity and inclusion is important, but I don't think this should be a standalone badge. It should be rolled into a combined citizenship badge. There are now effectively 4 Eagle required badges on the topic of citizenship. Scouts by their nature as young people don't take a whole lot away from classroom style badges. 

I'd be up for that.  Modernize the Citizenship badges a bit and convert 4 to 3.  I'd even be game to go from 4 to 2.  One focused on citizenship in the nation, one focused on how to be a good citizen in your community.

[SSScout]

*sigh*

Yes. The BSA slash ScoutsUSA is/are in a bad way.  Caught for not dealing with sexual predators,  it is (we are ) reaping that harvest. 

By making the membership requirement effectively "Be a breathing human being between the ages of .... " I think we (they) have done the right thing. By tightening up the YP requirements, I think they (we ) have done the right thing.  

By complicating things by ADDING to our Promise and Law with this alledged Merit Badge,  and the Churchill study ,it is being claimed that the Scouting Movement CANNOT accept the membership changes and must therefore be REQUIRED to find and sign up "diverse" youth, or be ashamed of ourselves. 

The PR is faulty.  What kid wants to be REQUIRED to accept the kid next door BECAUSE she/he is NOT like them?   The average kid wants to play ball or quoits or Monopoly with the other kid next door because they live next door! It worked for me growing up.  When I was Drum Major for my HS band,  my Assistant/apprentice was a young black lady. So?  It might have been a "thing", but no body to my knowledge (to my knowledge !)  mentioned it. I don't think things have devolved so much in the intervening 47 (!!) years.  My home Troop has some Hindu Scouts, and I know the Patrol does it's very best to accommodate their religious dietary requirements.  

Go find and see "The Muddy Lions"   and "Troop 759 of Harlem".  Scouting works because all kids like the camping and hiking.  The adults almost always muck it up.  

You will never please every demographic.  You will never sign up every kid in a school.   You will never please every parent, not even the ones who insist that their urchin will make Eagle "or no drivers license."  Our Muslim/Black/Hispanic/Serbo-Croatian   neighbors need to know how Scouting can benefit their kids, but there is no guarantee that any of them will ever join up. 

Stay tuned for the further adventures of  "Mr. Scoutmaster "  (Clifton Webb) . 

[BQZip]

32 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

I think diversity and inclusion is important, but I don't think this should be a standalone badge. It should be rolled into a combined citizenship badge. There are now effectively 4 Eagle required badges on the topic of citizenship. Scouts by their nature as young people don't take a whole lot away from classroom style badges. 

Agreed...Also, do away with the citizenship in the world MB...There's no such thing as a citizen of Earth.

32 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

Can you cite any of those studies? One of the issues with diversity and inclusion is that it means different things in different places. That's a function of societal make up and culture. For the purposes of this forum, and the BSA's badge, I'd imagine we are discussing diversity and inclusion in an American context. 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/affirmative-disaster
https://www.city-journal.org/html/multiculti-u-13544.html
https://www.ocregister.com/2013/04/28/heather-macdonald-end-ucs-diversity-charade/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJSJcPKA1Ug

https://www.amazon.com/Mismatch-Affirmative-Students-s-Universities/dp/0465029965/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1462287664&sr=1-5
https://www.amazon.com/Affirmative-Action-Around-World-Empirical-ebook/dp/B00155ZZPE/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

[BQZip]

9 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'd be up for that.  Modernize the Citizenship badges a bit and convert 4 to 3.  I'd even be game to go from 4 to 2.  One focused on citizenship in the nation, one focused on how to be a good citizen in your community.

And just like that, I think we solve this problem. We can agree on this and, to be blunt, I think we can probably agree on the same general, noble goals without indoctrination on any side of a political aisle.

[BQZip]

10 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Caught for not dealing with sexual predators

I respectfully disagree with that point, but I understand the sentiment. BSA has accepted its role in this where the states have not.

I agree with virtually everything else that was said!

[JoeBob]

4 hours ago, Navybone said:

Honestly, I think you have made up your mind and are not interested in anything actual proof of the values of diversity or inclusion to an organization, a leader, or to an individual.  

Nope.  I have a very open mind.  In fact, I invite you to convince me.  I ask that you use simple words that an adolescent would understand. (We are talking about a Boy Scout merit badge, right?)  Inherent truths such as Diversity and Inclusion should have no need for cerebral academic studies.  Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, et al. were easily explained in layman's terms without high minded government funded research papers.  These new three ephemeral precepts should be easy, yes?  Go for it.

Before you dismiss me as an avowed racist chauvinist, know that I have served with / work with blacks, women, and Hispanics.  The color of their skin and their gender were/are irrelevant; they all earned their way into my circle of highly esteemed friends because of who they were and what they could do.

@Navybone, now it's your turn.

 

[JoeBob]

And furthermore...

If you try to degrade the quality of comradeship of seven white boys on a patrol campout, because they have no blacks or females; you are lost.  Would you try to argue that seven black sisters would improve their esprit de corps by adding a male cracker to their campfire? 

 

 

[Navybone]

2 hours ago, BQZip said:

I'm going to break this out piece-by-piece to demonstrate that your entire frame of reference is based on VERY poor assumptions.

Prager doesn't attempt to come off as an academic institution in any way. They are a Corporate University (no more an academic institution than Disney University or Apple University) 
https://www.prageru.com/faq/

LOL. Keep drinking the lefty kool aid. He specifically claims that he is a "Classic British Liberal". While some of his views are right of center, his general tenets are HIGHLY mainstream and WELL backed by research.

The conclusion is based on facts, not opinion. The research and numerous examples are listed below EACH of PragerU's videos. 

As explained above, no. No one said or implied that "including a wide ranging group of ideas is bad". 

I find it crazy that when I don’t agree with very conservative beliefs I am accused of being a liberal or in this case, “drinking the lefty cool aid,” when I am any hit go but a leftist or a conservative.  I strongly believe in giving people opportunity, listening to them if they have good ideas, and building inclusive teams for results, specifically not excluding them if they are different than I am.  I am a believer it some of Patton’s concepts : If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.  And have diversity of background, education and thought is a very effective way to not have everyone thinking alike.  
And you only included part of the quote I attributed to YOUR post.    Here is what you attribute the following to JP:” Diversity" doesn't mean "a wide ranging group of ideas". It means "increased influence by people more generally aligned with leftist ideals" (usually from groups that deem themselves "oppressed").  Your right, no one said wide groups of ideas is bad, be that is not what JP said diversity is.  He says it is increased influence ...with leftist ideals, which is complete BS.  
 

 

[ParkMan]

I'm just amazed that on a forum about Scouting we are really having some sort of debate on whether diversity and inclusion is a good thing.  This isn't a discussion about some political belief or taking sides, it's just a discussion about whether we want to encourage everyone to come Scout with us.  Isn't that kind of the whole point of the Oath and Law?  I'm utterly confused.

Edited November 21, 2020 by ParkMan
Typos

[Navybone]

1 hour ago, JoeBob said:

Nope.  I have a very open mind.  In fact, I invite you to convince me.  I ask that you use simple words that an adolescent would understand. (We are talking about a Boy Scout merit badge, right?)  Inherent truths such as Diversity and Inclusion should have no need for cerebral academic studies.  Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, et al. were easily explained in layman's terms without high minded government funded research papers.  These new three ephemeral precepts should be easy, yes?  Go for it.

Before you dismiss me as an avowed racist chauvinist, know that I have served with / work with blacks, women, and Hispanics.  The color of their skin and their gender were/are irrelevant; they all earned their way into my circle of highly esteemed friends because of who they were and what they could do.

@Navybone, now it's your turn.

 

We do not need to make the concepts of diversity and inclusion hard.  Break down diversity for an adolescent:  diversity is recognizing the people with different backgrounds, schools, areas of the county or world bring different point of views and ideas.  It’s like why a person from the south mayneat one meal for the holidays where someone from the Midwest may eat something else.  Or why coca-cola is called soda in some parts of the country, but called pop elsewhere.  
 

and inclusion is simply allowing others to participate, regardless of their background or where they are from.  It allows them to be part of the patrol and make the troop stronger.

any of those concepts too hard for an adolescent?  
 

by your own admission you believe in the concepts of diversity and inclusion at their most basic level.  You included others into your professional,or personal life and based on their actions and performance, were part of the team or social circle. That is what we should be encouraging our scouts.  

[JoeBob]

4 minutes ago, Navybone said:

by your own admission you believe in the concepts of diversity and inclusion at their most basic level.

Nope.  I believe in valuing individuals for themselves.  I don't seek out individuals based on their group identity. 

"I need a black friend."  "Why?"  "Because he's black."  Duh.

"I need a girl friend." is a different topic...

Attributing value to people because of their group identity is setting them up for failure.  

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, JoeBob said:

And furthermore...

If you try to degrade the quality of comradeship of seven white boys on a patrol campout, because they have no blacks or females; you are lost.  Would you try to argue that seven black sisters would improve their esprit de corps by adding a male cracker to their campfire? 

 

 

We really need move past this kind of talk.  The kind of racial terms now being thrown about are simply not acceptable in 2020 and need to stop now.

It's not about degrading the experience for one particular group, race, creed, sex, whatever.  In 2020, this is about kids being in Scouting.  It's really time to move on from race & gender arguments and just focus on having an open table that anyone can join.  I frankly don't care if purple, blue, or whatever kids join our troop - all kids are welcome and we want kids of all backgrounds to feel welcomed and comfortable.

To me, the whole point of diversity and inclusion is asking ourselves the question - am I really setting a table that anyone can join?  Do I really understand how those who join us feel when they show up?  Talk like this only excludes people from Scouting and is exactly why the BSA is starting programs like this merit badge.

You want to debate this merit badge - fine.  Do it without hurtful and offensive language.

[JoeBob]

21 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Do it without hurtful and offensive language.

You need to be more specific. What hurtful/offensive language?  If I hurt your feelings because I challenged your world view, you need to grow up.

 

23 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

We really need move past this kind of talk.  The kind of racial terms now being thrown about are simply not acceptable in 2020 and need to stop now.

Hah!  It will get better if we don't talk about it?  The debate is over?  I reject your basic premise and what's more, with that line of persuasion; so do the boys.  

By making this merit badge Eagle required, BSA is elevating 'Diversity' and 'Inclusion' to the level of the 12 Scout Law tenets.  For 100 years, the Scout Law was inviolate to the troops.  Now the political winds change and suddenly we're adding virtues?  Maybe those first 12 were not so important, after all.  Oh wait; hasn't 'Reverent" been blown away, too?

[Navybone]

47 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

Nope.  I believe in valuing individuals for themselves.  I don't seek out individuals based on their group identity. 

"I need a black friend."  "Why?"  "Because he's black."  Duh.

"I need a girl friend." is a different topic...

Attributing value to people because of their group identity is setting them up for failure.  

But diversity and inclusion is not saying you need a black friend.  It means that you are willing to work with or be friends with someone who is not just like you.  It is not about quotas either.  In no way is it about attributing value because of their group identity.  
 

what do you think diversity and inclusion means?  

[Navybone]

2 hours ago, JoeBob said:

And furthermore...

If you try to degrade the quality of comradeship of seven white boys on a patrol campout, because they have no blacks or females; you are lost.  Would you try to argue that seven black sisters would improve their esprit de corps by adding a male cracker to their campfire? 

 

 

At no point did I degrade the comradeship of seven boys on a patrol camp out because they are all white or male?  But if they excluded scouts based on their skin or religion, then I call into the question the leadership of that patrol and troop, and do call into the question the lessons those scouts are learning.  Because then they are not friendly, courteous, or kind.   

i am confused by you need to add an ethic slur, even if you are of that ethnicity.  It is neither numerous or of value to the discussion.  More does the use of the term black sisters, unless your intent was specifically to highlight that a large family may be camping.  In that case, it makes no sense.