Update on new Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion MB

[Bowsprit]

2 hours ago, BAJ said:

Much of this discussion is being shaped by interpretations of why BSA National issued the statement that it did during the protests triggered by the death of Mr. Floyd.... etc.

Well put position.

Here is the hook about DEI that gets peoples' attention. Zero posters on this thread, regardless of their position on this issue, are coming across as racist or sexist to me. Yet, as I read through these comments, especially from certain commentors, there is a clear implied accusation that those of us against DEI training must be racist, despite a complete lack of any evidence to the effect. This is attempted bullying from the people who are telling us we all need to stop being bullies. Outside this forum, which is thankfully mostly respectful, the accusations are much more direct.

When someone tries to shut down resistance or skepticism regarding an idea by resorting to doing the very thing they claim to be trying to stop, you should be getting alarm bells. You should be thinking these are not the people who should be making the rules about this thing.

Make sense?

[Bowsprit]

1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

Funny people downvoting this, because I suggest people more forward an work together.  I choose to embrace our differences and support my fellow scouters.

No, you are getting downvoted for resorting to name calling and insisting we don't get to be skeptical about DEI training. In effect, you're trying to shut dow the conversation and declare your position indisputably righteous.

[mashmaster]

9 minutes ago, Bowsprit said:

No, you are getting downvoted for resorting to name calling and insisting we don't get to be skeptical about DEI training. In effect, you're trying to shut dow the conversation and declare your position indisputably righteous.

No, wasn't name calling at all.  And how was my position righteous?  Do you think all this arguing is going to get rid of or change the Merit Badge?

[Bowsprit]

9 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

No, wasn't name calling at all.  And how was my position righteous?  Do you think all this arguing is going to get rid of or change the Merit Badge?

Ok, then who's making vile comments? You painted the whole conversation with that brush. I can tell you for certain that people not coming together and having this conversation can't change anything. Shutting down the conversation because you don't see the value isn't very scouty. We're teaching kids to think and lead not be silently accepting of whatever the world throws at them. In short, your comment was pessimistic and dismissive, hence you coming across as righteous.

[Navybone]

41 minutes ago, Bowsprit said:

Zero posters on this thread, regardless of their position on this issue, are coming across as racist or sexist to me. Yet, as I read through these comments, especially from certain commentors, there is a clear implied accusation that those of us against DEI training must be racist, despite a complete lack of any evidence to the effect.

I think there has been some spirited discussion, but I do not think anyone has called or implied anyone is racist.  

[mashmaster]

9 minutes ago, Bowsprit said:

Ok, then who's making vile comments? You painted the whole conversation with that brush. I can tell you for certain that people not coming together and having this conversation can't change anything. Shutting down the conversation because you don't see the value isn't very scouty. We're teaching kids to think and lead not be silently accepting of whatever the world throws at them. In short, your comment was pessimistic and dismissive, hence you coming across as righteous.

Lots of talking, not a lot of listening.  I haven't seen people listening to the other side, on either side of the MB on this thread.  That is the lesson that I would want scouts to learn, leadership is about listening and well as talking.  There are valid points to both sides of most issues.

You chose to take it a pessimistic.  That is your choice.  I stated facts with no side one way or another.

And trust me, I am a sailor, If I wanted to call names I can do that very well.  That is a better discussion to hold over an adult beverage at a bar.

[Owls_are_cool]

1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

Do you think all this arguing is going to get rid of or change the Merit Badge?

You are right that none of us at the unit level doing most of the work will be given a chance to provide input on this new merit badge (or on even if it is needed). That is the way it is. 

2020 was a hard year on the organization with COVID-19 and the constant radio and TV ads looking for people harmed by the BSA to join a lawsuit. While my troop gained 2 scouts last year, it lost 5 of them due to COVID-19 restrictions. (Actually one was lost due to age out.) My troop did okay in weathering the storm. Myself and my co-volunteers put in a lot of work to make this happen. A number of other packs and troops in my district are not doing as well. This should be our organization's focus in 2021.

If the BSA chooses the road to redemption via adopting left-wing causes, then I will likely leave the organization at the end of this year. I did not sign up to volunteer for the Boy Scouts to prime scouts to support any political ideology. To help scouts to spend time in the outdoors and serve the community is what I signed up for in order for scouts to grow in character, leadership, citizenship, and physical fitness. No need to bring politics into that which will hurt recruitment. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

56 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Lots of talking, not a lot of listening.

I have been listening. And have taken sides with reason and evidence.  Developing the vaccine, if you will

https://www.wsj.com/articles/social-justice-warriors-wont-listen-but-you-should-11570832255

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, mashmaster said:

Funny people downvoting this, because I suggest people more forward an work together.  I choose to embrace our differences and support my fellow scouters.

The issue was the statement on facts.  There are many "facts" out there.  The question is which facts do you choose to emphasize and which do you ignore.  

[fred8033]

12 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said:

If the BSA chooses the road to redemption via adopting left-wing causes, then I will likely leave the organization at the end of this year. I did not sign up to volunteer for the Boy Scouts to prime scouts to support any political ideology. To help scouts to spend time in the outdoors and serve the community is what I signed up for in order for scouts to grow in character, leadership, citizenship, and physical fitness. No need to bring politics into that which will hurt recruitment. 

I am strongly leaning in the same direction.  This may be my opporunity to find somewhere else to spend my time.  I was hoping to do far more than 20 years as a volunteer, but this September is 20 years since I brought my first son to his first meeting and bought him his orange Tiger t-shirt and hat.  Perhaps, it's time to move on.  I was glad to see many of the recent membership policy changes.  But it has been 20 years of issues starting first with 1999 Dale vs BSA.  Now yet another self-inflicted issue ... and this one very political.  

Edited January 3, 2021 by fred8033

[mashmaster]

8 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I am strongly leaning in the same direction.  This may be my opporunity to find somewhere else to spend my time. 

I will still be here teaching youth to sail, camp, and lead as best I can.  I am in this for the youth not the organization.  Maybe you should look into Sea Scouts, we have no merit badges.  We do have mad sailing and leadership skills though.

[BQZip]

14 hours ago, Navybone said:

Diversity does not equal Black Lives Matter.  One can discuss diversity, equity, and inclusion without discussing black lives matter.  The definition I used is from the dictionary.  
 

my point is that diversity and the idea that people of different races, religion, socio-economic backgrounds, etc, have value and should be included is not in of itself political.  

Here we go again. You're taking what I said completely out of context (and is a SPECTACULAR example of how the left is twisting the discussion.

You started with replying to:

Quote

DEI comes from one side of the political spectrum, the quality of the 'science' supporting it is on par with Eugenics, and we don't all agree it's a good thing or that it is even consistent with the law and oath. Hence this conversation.

with

Quote

“the practice or quality of including or involving people from a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds and of different genders, sexual orientations, etc.” 

this is political?  Really, that is what you think?  If you do, then this is a waste of time even trying to discuss it.  

You ignored the points made and gave a definition of an unspecified term. I attempted to further clarify the objection with examples of what this side of the political spectrum advocates. You decided to change the subject at hand and imply we are criticizing diversity (apparently the definition you gave). Neither of us are doing so. We are criticizing the abhorrently abysmal "research" (which is little more than just people's opinions) which bolsters DEI as a whole, not the minuscule, cherry-picked portion you decided to highlight.

I've been clear from the beginning: I support diversity and inclusion in scouting (in general). I do NOT support teaching intersectionality and grievance studies as facts. I completely oppose the idea of equity, as it is an unachievable goal and could only possibly be achieved through draconian socialistic/Marxist practices that (at best) drive down the quality of life. Equal opportunity? Absolutely. Giving people assistance to help them where they may be lacking in experience? Sure. Handicapping/benefitting individuals based on the color of their skin/gender or telling someone their opinion doesn't matter because of their skin color/gender? Not on your life. (And yes, this has happened).
 

[BQZip]

14 hours ago, Navybone said:

This is an example of what I was trying to address: Let’s say your faith does not support the concept of homosexuality and finds it immoral.  Homosexuality exists and is not illegal.  The scouts will experience someone who is homosexual, if they have not already.  The point I am trying to make is that these scouts will find themselves with a challenge, how do they reconcile this as they grow older?  What will they do if they end up working with a homosexual?  
 

Sent from my iPad

You painted a WIDE brush with your claim. Let's say that, for example, the Catholic Church charters a unit. You think they are going to support a scout leader as a homosexual? They shouldn't. Not because of what I or anyone else says/thinks on the subject, but that their statements of faith prohibit it.

https://www.usccb.org/committees/laity-marriage-family-life-youth/homosexuality

If BSA is going to say "You have to embrace our opinions on homosexuality", they are asking the church to go against their own teachings. That goes against the whole "supporting people of faith" that scouts purports.

Now if BSA decides that we should hear what people have to say and don't discriminate against them based on how they feel, then that falls in line with these teachings. Based on what has been released, I'm skeptical it will be.

[qwazse]

14 hours ago, Navybone said:

I think there has been some spirited discussion, but I do not think anyone has called or implied anyone is racist.  

For the record, I have not implied, but rather explicitly stated that some scouts or their parents espouse racism. I spared the details for various reasons ... mainly to avoid speaking for scouts who might proudly assert a view now, but grow to regret it.

Implying that any posters here are racist would be ad homenim that violates forum rules and is largely irrelevant when weighing the points someone puts forward.

My main interest in this thread is determining if this MB improves scouts' abilities to address problems of the day.

[mashmaster]

5 hours ago, qwazse said:

My main interest in this thread is determining if this MB improves scouts' abilities to address problems of the day.

I doubt that it will, but it could really depend on the MBC for it.  For instance, I have seen First Aid MBC's do great jobs and scouts get great value from it.  I have also seen it run so badly that the scouts learned nothing about First Aid.

One of the best things that happened to our Cub Scout den way back when...was when a Muslim scout joined and the scouts got to learn first hand about religious differences.