Update on new Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion MB

[Navybone]

11 hours ago, BQZip said:

Over 2 years ago, PragerU posted a video which warned of the dangers of the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion philosophy.
https://www.prageru.com/video/dangerous-people-are-teaching-your-kids/
In short:
"Diversity" doesn't mean "a wide ranging group of ideas". It means "increased influence by people more generally aligned with leftist ideals" (usually from groups that deem themselves "oppressed")
"Equity" doesn't mean equal opportunity (a laudable goal!), but is instead a focus on equal outcomes, something NO society has EVER come close to achieving. Anything short of it is "evidence" of discriminatory bias; the choices that people make that cause most of these inequities (not all) are merely byproducts of more discrimination.
"Inclusion" doesn't mean "be open to others joining your group". Instead it generally focuses on identity based quotas in order to achieve the aforementioned malformed concept of equity.
 

PragerU or Prager University is NOT an academic institute and is nothing more than a very conservative mouth piece.  It has been called out multiple times for stating opinions or propaganda as facts, although none are backed but any academic-level research.  None of its research or writings meet the minimum academic standards.  

[Eagledad]

39 minutes ago, Navybone said:

This may be one of the most concerning things I have ever seen on this site.   There are multiple studies, academic or business related, that illustrate the value and importance of diversity and inclusion.  There are countless successful leadership philosophies the herald the importance of diversity and inclusion.   Honestly, I think you have made up your mind and are not interested in anything actual proof of the values of diversity or inclusion to an organization, a leader, or to an individual.   

Diversity and inclusion are leadership qualities? What about the rest of us?

You just supported Joebob's point. 

Barry

Edited November 20, 2020 by Eagledad

[BQZip]

18 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I get what you're saying - but why make an issue out of it?  If someone wants me to stop leaving apples on my desk because they are sensitive to the implication of it, I'll be happy to take the apple off my desk. 

Because, instead of talking to me one-on-one, he reported the action to the Military Equal Opportunity office as an act of racism (FWIW, they found no ill intent on my part). The intent of such an action isn't to create a dialogue, but use such power as a cudgel to beat down opposition to their control over your lives.

19 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Yep, occasionally good people get inadvertently blamed - but it has a way or sorting itself out when others then can speak to your character on your behalf.  I'm sure in your case others stood up and said that you were a great guy and had no ill intent at all.

I shouldn't have needed a lawyer, my commander, and character witnesses over a ****ing piece of fruit.

[Jackdaws]

Has anyone heard of Scout reach?  

We have a couple units here in my council.   One has their meetings in one of the roughest housing developments in our city.   Not really sure how successful it is though... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoutreach

Its hard for some to see the value of Scouting or how it can form their future for the better.  Some people seek out sports for their child to be the next (insert top NBA & NFL players names here) and think that is their ticket to becoming successful.  That is something that the BSA can't compete with, we are not flashy.  That's a society thing and over the years we have seen some big falls from grace on some of those "role models" in sports. 

Sadly a lot of people think Scouting is nerdy and something for white kids who can't play sports.  If people would see the long run value/benefits that their child can gain from the BSA vs the money and physical long term effects of competitive sports then you can sell them on it.    My knees can tell you the price of being a catcher in softball for many years.

Hope I don't get flamed for this:

Personally I think this new badge is just a tactic to look "woke" and try and "save face".   If you are truly living the Scout Oath and Law, you should not be having issues and stop any issues you see arising.  

The BSA needs to leave itself alone, it used to be a well respected and sought out program for America's youth.   The watering down of requirements, pandering to small group of demographics and rising membership fees have not done nothing to strengthen the program at all.   BSA likes to try to count their chickens before they have even laid the eggs.    Focus on and rebuild what worked for over 75-90 of the first 110 years of the BSA(provided with the new YP in place!)

 

[Navybone]

14 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Diversity an inclusion are leadership qualities? What about the rest of us?

You just supported Joebob's point. 

Barry

Diversity and Inclusion are not leadership qualities.  Leadership qualities are decision-making, empathy, character, and integrity, to name a few.  There is no "diversity" quality in an individual. Believing in and utilizing diversity and inclusion are very effective approaches or beliefs  to lead and manage teams and organizations.  They are not some left wing agenda item, but based on the idea that individuals have value, and their value is based on their past and experiences, such as how they were raised, education, etc, and that by bringing them in and developing them as effective members of a team, it creates increased likelihood of organizational success and spurs on innovation.  

If there is effective inclusion, there is no "rest of us", as inclusion would include you.  In face, excluding you would be the opposite of inclusion. 

This is NOTHING like what JoeBob is saying, and I support nothing he said in that post..  

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, Navybone said:

Diversity and Inclusion are not leadership qualities.  Leadership qualities are decision-making, empathy, character, and integrity, to name a few.  There is no "diversity" quality in an individual. Believing in and utilizing diversity and inclusion are very effective approaches or beliefs  to lead and manage teams and organizations.  They are not some left wing agenda item, but based on the idea that individuals have value, and their value is based on their past and experiences, such as how they were raised, education, etc, and that by bringing them in and developing them as effective members of a team, it creates increased likelihood of organizational success and spurs on innovation.  

If there is effective inclusion, there is no "rest of us", as inclusion would include you.  In face, excluding you would be the opposite of inclusion. 

You just described the values of the Scout Oath and Law quite well.

Maybe we should just stick to scouting.

Barry

 

[ParkMan]

16 minutes ago, BQZip said:

Because, instead of talking to me one-on-one, he reported the action to the Military Equal Opportunity office as an act of racism (FWIW, they found no ill intent on my part). The intent of such an action isn't to create a dialogue, but use such power as a cudgel to beat down opposition to their control over your lives.

I shouldn't have needed a lawyer, my commander, and character witnesses over a ****ing piece of fruit.

Understood, and what happened to you is indeed awful, but I don't think it should be a reason to not continue to build bridges.  It's all too easy in our country today to label whole groups by the actions of a few.  

The core issues here are still the same - our country has a history of slavery that turned into a long legacy of racism.  I think it's still in the best interest of healing in our country to be proactive in trying to remove the vestiages of racsim.  I think that requires us all to be as proactive as possible.  I would rather be on the side of understanding and forgiveness than on the side of mistrust myself.

[BQZip]

25 minutes ago, Navybone said:

PragerU or Prager University is NOT an academic institute and is nothing more than a very conservative mouth piece.  It has been called out multiple times for stating opinions or propaganda as facts, although none are backed but any academic-level research.  None of its research or writings meet the minimum academic standards.  

1. I never claimed they were an academic institute of any kind
2. dismissing content as a "conservative mouthpiece" and "propaganda" without discussing substance effectively shows you aren't interested in discussing any points that conservatives have. Very convenient for discussions in which you want to dismiss all opposing views
3. Indeed, they are stating opinions, but I don't see them stating such opinions as facts.
4. I would HIGHLY dispute that "none are backed but any academic-level research". This speaker in particular, Jordan Peterson, is particularly noted for his highly researched materials/presentations.
5. "None of its research or writings meet the minimum academic standards." I would dispute that, but they aren't an academic institution either, so...

[Navybone]

28 minutes ago, BQZip said:

1. I never claimed they were an academic institute of any kind
2. dismissing content as a "conservative mouthpiece" and "propaganda" without discussing substance effectively shows you aren't interested in discussing any points that conservatives have. Very convenient for discussions in which you want to dismiss all opposing views
3. Indeed, they are stating opinions, but I don't see them stating such opinions as facts.
4. I would HIGHLY dispute that "none are backed but any academic-level research". This speaker in particular, Jordan Peterson, is particularly noted for his highly researched materials/presentations.
5. "None of its research or writings meet the minimum academic standards." I would dispute that, but they aren't an academic institution either, so...

You are right, you never claimed that it was an academic institution.  But Prager attempts to come off academic institution, which is obvious, based on its name.  We find ourselves in an era of internet based "facts", and understanding the bias within the source of these facts is often just as important as the facts themselves.  And PragerU has a very strong right leaning bias.  That means it is not neutral in its statements or videos, but promoting a specific agenda.  And in this case, it is against the ideas within diversity or inclusion.  So much totneh point, that is has distorted the ideas behind these statements. 

- Jordan Peterson is noted for his research, if you are support the ideas that political correctness has gone too far.  His ideas are not mainstream and he considers himself as a conservative.  Again, know the source.  You attribute the following to him: "Diversity" doesn't mean "a wide ranging group of ideas". It means "increased influence by people more generally aligned with leftist ideals" (usually from groups that deem themselves "oppressed").  This is not fact, it is 100% opinion and only supports the idea that including a wide ranging group of ideas is bad.  

And to be clear, I was calling out PragerU as a source and revealing its bias for anyone who may be unaware.  I was not offering a counterpoint to any to its statements, no matter what I think of them.  I will not convince you otherwise on a message board like this - its imporssible.  All I can do it make sure that there is no doubt on the bias of the source.

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Navybone

[Jameson76]

No matter how you may feel on this, biggest challenge is this is the continuing move away from our CORE COMPETENCY.  Is this "Fun with a Purpose"?  I would say no and it does not add value to the program.

I am not suggesting that the possible issue may be important to society, but there are many many issues that may be important to society.  The BSA cannot be all things to all people.  The more we try the more we wander aimlessly with each special interest group looking to "mold" the Scouting movement in America to what they "feel" is important and critical.

Stick with the basics, focus on fun and outdoors, differentiate the Scouting movement in the market place.  Drill down to the WHY kids join.  This is like houses, not every house one builds may suit everyone.  Deal with the reality and be good at what we do and narrow focus on that.

Bending and moving to the winds of whatever is current will continue to kill the movement.

[TMSM]

2 hours ago, Navybone said:

This may be one of the most concerning things I have ever seen on this site.   There are multiple studies, academic or business related, that illustrate the value and importance of diversity and inclusion.  There are countless successful leadership philosophies the herald the importance of diversity and inclusion.   Honestly, I think you have made up your mind and are not interested in anything actual proof of the values of diversity or inclusion to an organization, a leader, or to an individual.   

Actually diversity and inclusion have been proven to not be effective with many global studies disproving this theory. 

I think the reason is that that these terms are too high level and allow someone to play with the meaning of diversity. Its easy to point to a specific use case where it does or does not work.

 

[ParkMan]

I put this MB in the same category as the Citizenship ones.  This provides concepts that helps prepare scouts to be effective members of society.  While I'd wouldn't complain if all the Citizenship MBs went away, I also won't complain about this one given our nation's history.

While I an sure that we can find examples where diversity and inclusion do not work as intended, this is one of those areas where we need to stay positive and keep trying.  Our kids will all benefit from living in am increasingly diverse country and will thank is for that at least.

[skeptic]

1 hour ago, Navybone said:

You are right, you never claimed that it was an academic institution.  But Prager attempts to come off academic institution, which is obvious, based on its name.  We find ourselves in an era of internet based "facts", and understanding the bias within the source of these facts is often just as important as the facts themselves.  And PragerU has a very strong right leaning bias.  That means it is not neutral in its statements or videos, but promoting a specific agenda.  And in this case, it is against the ideas within diversity or inclusion.  So much totneh point, that is has distorted the ideas behind these statements. 

- Jordan Peterson is noted for his research, if you are support the ideas that political correctness has gone too far.  His ideas are not mainstream and he considers himself as a conservative.  Again, know the source.  You attribute the following to him: "Diversity" doesn't mean "a wide ranging group of ideas". It means "increased influence by people more generally aligned with leftist ideals" (usually from groups that deem themselves "oppressed").  This is not fact, it is 100% opinion and only supports the idea that including a wide ranging group of ideas is bad.  

And to be clear, I was calling out PragerU as a source and revealing its bias for anyone who may be unaware.  I was not offering a counterpoint to any to its statements, no matter what I think of them.  I will not convince you otherwise on a message board like this - its imporssible.  All I can do it make sure that there is no doubt on the bias of the source.

 

Yep; I have to admit that if I could, I would bar Prager from my FB page, but they apparently do not fit the mold for being able to block.  I just delete posts if possible.  They are so biased as to be almost liberal as they move around the circle.  And, as noted, they also are NOT a university, and purposely try to lead people to think they have an intellectual leg up.

 

[Sentinel947]

14 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I put this MB in the same category as the Citizenship ones.  This provides concepts that helps prepare scouts to be effective members of society.  While I'd wouldn't complain if all the Citizenship MBs went away, I also won't complain about this one given our nation's history.

While I an sure that we can find examples where diversity and inclusion do not work as intended, this is one of those areas where we need to stay positive and keep trying.  Our kids will all benefit from living in am increasingly diverse country and will thank is for that at least.

I think diversity and inclusion is important, but I don't think this should be a standalone badge. It should be rolled into a combined citizenship badge. There are now effectively 4 Eagle required badges on the topic of citizenship. Scouts by their nature as young people don't take a whole lot away from classroom style badges. 

26 minutes ago, TMSM said:

Actually diversity and inclusion have been proven to not be effective with many global studies disproving this theory. 

I think the reason is that that these terms are too high level and allow someone to play with the meaning of diversity. Its easy to point to a specific use case where it does or does not work.

 

Can you cite any of those studies? One of the issues with diversity and inclusion is that it means different things in different places. That's a function of societal make up and culture. For the purposes of this forum, and the BSA's badge, I'd imagine we are discussing diversity and inclusion in an American context. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Sentinel947

[BQZip]

I'm going to break this out piece-by-piece to demonstrate that your entire frame of reference is based on VERY poor assumptions.

4 minutes ago, Navybone said:

You are right, you never claimed that it was an academic institution.  But Prager attempts to come off academic institution, which is obvious, based on its name.

Prager doesn't attempt to come off as an academic institution in any way. They are a Corporate University (no more an academic institution than Disney University or Apple University) 
https://www.prageru.com/faq/

Quote

Are you an accredited university?

No, PragerU is not an accredited university, nor do we claim to be. We do not offer degrees. However, we are the most influential online resource for explaining the concepts that have made America great.

 

8 minutes ago, Navybone said:

 And in this case, it is against the ideas within diversity or inclusion.

You didn't watch the video then. To the contrary. JP advocates for both diversity AND inclusion; it's the perversion of these concepts he rails against. This movement redefines these terms to suppress/repress conservative ideas and/or majority views. There is a VAST difference between being respectful and inviting vs (effectively) mandating compliance with dictated, heavy-handed, & conjured societal norms. I've been told to "shut up" solely because I'm a male or white or Christian or a number of other attributes, none of which had anything to do with whether my point/argument was correct.
 

16 minutes ago, Navybone said:

His ideas are not mainstream and he considers himself as a conservative.

LOL. Keep drinking the lefty kool aid. He specifically claims that he is a "Classic British Liberal". While some of his views are right of center, his general tenets are HIGHLY mainstream and WELL backed by research.
 

1 hour ago, Navybone said:

This is not fact, it is 100% opinion and only supports the idea that including a wide ranging group of ideas is bad.  [emphasis added]

The conclusion is based on facts, not opinion. The research and numerous examples are listed below EACH of PragerU's videos. 

As explained above, no. No one said or implied that "including a wide ranging group of ideas is bad".