Proposal: Tax funds pay for abuse liability, other reforms

[RememberSchiff]

3 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I recognize you can sue.  What I'm saying is ... from what I understand ... the recent law changes that allowed re-establishing expired liabilities ... even decades in the past ... again from my understanding ... did not re-open expired liabilities to schools and other government organizations.  

If it was extended, then these lawsuits should be hitting every city, state and school district that chartered scouts for the last 50 years.  If you want deep pockets, go after the school districts.

The recent (2018/2019) state Child Victim Acts are not restricted to child abuse cases in just the BSA or private youth organizations. Schools, churches, and municipalities are also liable in the look-back windows.

Edited October 23, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[TAHAWK]

This is a question of state law.

 

"Who can survivors of child sexual abuse file a claim against?

Under the [new York] CVA, survivors can now file a claim against private and public institutions that may have also been involved in the abuse (this includes negligence of the institution). This is because the CVA removed “the notice of claim” requirement under the old law which usually applies before someone can bring a claim against a public institution. Survivors can file claims against these institutions during the new one (1)-year extension period for claims that had already expired under the old statute of limitations."

[CynicalScouter]

3 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Correct. There are a few court cases that establish that Police officers literally do not need to intervene if they are witnessing a crime taking place. They have no legal duty to "protect." https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/

DeShaney v. Winnebago County

Supreme Court held that a state government agency's failure to prevent child abuse by a custodial parent does not violate the child's right to liberty for the purposes of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Town of Castle Rock v. Gonzales

A town and its police department could not be sued under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 for failing to enforce a restraining order, which had led to the murder of a woman's three children by her estranged husband

[CynicalScouter]

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Schools, churches, and municipalities are also liable in the look-back windows.

Not public schools and municipalities, at least under the NY version. That law did NOT allow for waiver/extension of claims against local and state government.

Quote

5. Notwithstanding any provision of law to the contrary, this section shall not apply to any claim made against a city, county, town, village, fire district or school district for physical, psychological, or other injury or condition suffered as a result of conduct which would constitute a sexual offense as defined in article one hundred thirty of the penal law committed against a child less than eighteen years of age,incest as defined in section 255.27, 255.26 or 255.25 of the penal law committed against a child less than eighteen years of age, or the use of a child in a sexual performance as defined in section 263.05 of the penal law committed against a child less than eighteen years of age.

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

IMO, the quote was taken out of context  https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2019/S2440

§ 6. Section 50-i of the general municipal law is amended by adding a 48 new subdivision 5 to read as follows: 49 5. Notwithstanding any provision of law to the contrary, this section 50 shall not apply to any claim made against a city, county, town, village, 51 fire district or school district for physical, psychological, or other 52 injury or condition suffered as a result of conduct which would consti- 53 tute a sexual offense as defined in article one hundred thirty of the 54 penal law committed against a child less than eighteen years of age, 55 incest as defined in section 255.27, 255.26 or 255.25 of the penal law 56 committed against a child less than eighteen years of age, or the use of a child in a sexual performance as defined in section 263.05 of the 2 penal law committed against a child less than eighteen years of age

So 50-i of the General Municipal law Presentation of tort claims, commencement of actions 

with  1.No action or special proceeding shall be prosecuted or maintained against a city, county, town, village, fire district or school district for personal injury ... and short time limits ...does not apply when these acts were committed against a child less than 18 due to CVA (Child Victim Act)

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/GMU/50-I

 5. Notwithstanding any provision of law to the contrary, this section shall not apply to any claim made against a city, county, town, village, fire district or school district for physical, psychological, or other injury or condition suffered as a result of conduct which would constitute a sexual offense as defined in article one hundred thirty of the penal law committed against a child less than eighteen years of age, incest as defined in section 255.27, 255.26 or 255.25 of the penal law committed against a child less than eighteen years of age, or the use of a child in a sexual performance as defined in section 263.05 of the penal law committed against a child less than eighteen years of age.

 

Here's just one example of a NY town and its school district being sued

https://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/rochester/child-victims-act-lawsuit-targets-brighton-town-school-district/Content?oid=10925411

Not a lawyer but that is my read. Most of the NY Child Victims Act  is a list of amendments to existing state law.

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[yknot]

5 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Yup. Sometimes a little time away helps out. I quietly log out and go away sometimes. Big reason I stopped being a moderator, I didn't want to be obligated to be reading the forum all the time. 

@ParkMan Focus on what you can control. You can control how your children and grandchildren's unit's perform. You have control over what experience they get, and what kind of young men and women they become. National, the bankruptcy and all the rest is out of our control. It's good to keep and eye on it, but it's just not worth worrying about. You and I can't change or influence it in any way. 

I also check out sometimes. I come here for hope but often leave depressed. 

However,  just to share some uplifting info I just discovered: 

We all know about Bear Grylls but famous U.K. scouts also include John Lennon, Paul McCartney, David Beckham, David Bowie, Richard Branson, Tony Blair, Keith Richards (!!!!) and, my favorite, Sir David Attenborough. You have to laugh. Could you imagine having a young Keith Richards in your Pack or Troop?  

Edited October 24, 2020 by yknot

[fred8033]

6 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

The recent (2018/2019) state Child Victim Acts are not restricted to child abuse cases in just the BSA or private youth organizations. Schools, churches, and municipalities are also liable in the look-back windows.

Okay.  Sounds like what I heard is wrong.  I thought it was not being retroactively applied to public schools and other government orgs.  

 

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Here's just one example of a NY town and its school district being sued

https://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/rochester/child-victims-act-lawsuit-targets-brighton-town-school-district/Content?oid=10925411

Not a lawyer but that is my read. Most of the NY Child Victims Act  is a list of amendments to existing state law.

I'm surprised this is not happening nation wide.  I'm aware of similar rumors in my school against specific teachers.  I'm betting this is nation wide and could easily be reverse applied to the 1960s and 1970s. 

[fred8033]

9 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Correct. In the case of NY, the law did NOT allow for waiver/extension of claims against local and state government.

That's what I thought too.  I suspect we have a nationwide inconsistency on re-opening lapsed liabilities.

[Sentinel947]

4 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

DeShaney v. Winnebago County

Supreme Court held that a state government agency's failure to prevent child abuse by a custodial parent does not violate the child's right to liberty for the purposes of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Town of Castle Rock v. Gonzales

A town and its police department could not be sued under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 for failing to enforce a restraining order, which had led to the murder of a woman's three children by her estranged husband

@CynicalScouter That's a reason why I own firearms. Ultimately, the only person responsible for my safety is me. People are free to disagree, but that's a big part of my stance.  

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I also check out sometimes. I come here for hope but often leave depressed. 

However,  just to share some uplifting info I just discovered: 

We all know about Bear Grylls but famous U.K. scouts also include John Lennon, Paul McCartney, David Beckham, David Bowie, Richard Branson, Tony Blair, Keith Richards (!!!!) and, my favorite, Sir David Attenborough. You have to laugh. Could you imagine having a young Keith Richards in your Pack or Troop?  

@yknot: Finishing my time with my Troop made me come to terms with my "legacy" so to speak. I've not been happy with the Troops direction for about a year or so, which led me to step back before I overstayed my welcome. After 15 years total as a youth and adult member with that Troop this has been quite painful and discouraging, along with the constant stream of bad news about the BSA in general. I think about what have I accomplished in my roughly 9 years of adult volunteering. What impact did I make? Did any of it matter? I've realized only a small bit of my "legacy" is what happens with the Troop long term. Most of the things I've done over time with the Troop will be lost. People will stumble over the remains and be confused about where it came from. The documents and the guides I wrote will likely get deleted, trashed, lost or ignored. The materials I purchased for the troop will wear out and get thrown out. The programs I developed will decay or be abandoned. The troop will face again the challenges we've already solved, and the ones which we couldn't. The troop may eventually fail and close. Or new leaders will rise to the challenge, and maybe they'll exceed even what my fellow volunteers and I accomplished. I hope they do. 

Either way, that's fine. It's beyond my control. It's not my full "legacy". It's not my only contribution. You talked about famous figures involved in Scouting. It's hard to imagine them as young scouts.  I'm still in touch with many of my former scouts. It makes me happy to see them starting families, graduating from school/university, launching careers or serving in the military. I'm proud I helped play a small part in their development, and that lessons I helped them learn will serve them the rest of their lives. I'm excited to see what else they get up to, and I hope I get to continue to play a small part in the lives of my former scouts. I hope they view me as a mentor, and a friend. They are my "legacy", the beneficiaries of my contributions to the Troop and to Scouting. That gives me hope and reminds me that my efforts and time spent were absolutely worth it. 

I'm still connected with many current and former leaders I've volunteered with. I like seeing what they're up doing in their current or post Scouting endeavors. It blows my mind when I see them in Facebook photos with their grandchildren, or starting their retirement lives. I count many of them as friends, mentors and role models.  Sadly I've lost a few, as time will eventually claim us all.  I'm part of the "legacy" and contributions the adult leaders of my youth made, and of the adults I served with as a volunteer.  

Yes, there were horrific abuses committed against youth by Scout leaders or other youth. The BSA, those individuals and maybe the CO's share responsibility for that. Certainly legally, and ethically. But I've seen firsthand the impact this program has had on me, and on the people around me. When we are on the other side of the bankruptcy, current Scouters, and new parents bringing their children into the program will move forward and build the best experience possible. We'll learn from the sins of the past, and from the best of Scouting's history and traditions. Hopefully I'll have my own children someday, and my Scouting journey will take on a new, different and challenging path with them. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Sentinel947

[yknot]

16 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

@CynicalScouter That's a reason why I own firearms. Ultimately, the only person responsible for my safety is me. People are free to disagree, but that's a big part of my stance.  

@yknot: Finishing my time with my Troop made me come to terms with my "legacy" so to speak. I've not been happy with the Troops direction for about a year or so, which led me to step back before I overstayed my welcome. After 15 years total as a youth and adult member with that Troop this has been quite painful and discouraging, along with the constant stream of bad news about the BSA in general. I think about what have I accomplished in my roughly 9 years of adult volunteering. What impact did I make? Did any of it matter? I've realized only a small bit of my "legacy" is what happens with the Troop long term. Most of the things I've done over time with the Troop will be lost. People will stumble over the remains and be confused about where it came from. The documents and the guides I wrote will likely get deleted, trashed, lost or ignored. The materials I purchased for the troop will wear out and get thrown out. The programs I developed will decay or be abandoned. The troop will face again the challenges we've already solved, and the ones which we couldn't. The troop may eventually fail and close. Or new leaders will rise to the challenge, and maybe they'll exceed even what my fellow volunteers and I accomplished. I hope they do. 

Either way, that's fine. It's beyond my control. It's not my full "legacy". It's not my only contribution. You talked about famous figures involved in Scouting. It's hard to imagine them as young scouts.  I'm still in touch with many of my former scouts. It makes me happy to see them starting families, graduating from school/university, launching careers or serving in the military. I'm proud I helped play a small part in their development, and that lessons I helped them learn will serve them the rest of their lives. I'm excited to see what else they get up to, and I hope I get to continue to play a small part in the lives of my former scouts. I hope they view me as a mentor, and a friend. They are my "legacy", the beneficiaries of my contributions to the Troop and to Scouting. That gives me hope and reminds me that my efforts and time spent were absolutely worth it. 

I'm still connected with many current and former leaders I've volunteered with. I like seeing what they're up doing in their current or post Scouting endeavors. It blows my mind when I see them in Facebook photos with their grandchildren, or starting their retirement lives. I count many of them as friends, mentors and role models.  Sadly I've lost a few, as time will eventually claim us all.  I'm part of the "legacy" and contributions the adult leaders of my youth made, and of the adults I served with as a volunteer.  

Yes, there were horrific abuses committed against youth by Scout leaders or other youth. The BSA, those individuals and maybe the CO's share responsibility for that. Certainly legally, and ethically. But I've seen firsthand the impact this program has had on me, and on the people around me. When we are on the other side of the bankruptcy, current Scouters, and new parents bringing their children into the program will move forward and build the best experience possible. We'll learn from the sins of the past, and from the best of Scouting's history and traditions. Hopefully I'll have my own children someday, and my Scouting journey will take on a new, different and challenging path with them. 

Very sweet essay. Thanks for sharing. We're all in it for our kids but many of us are also in it because someone else was also good to us along the way and we want to share and repay it. Or, we want to leave the world a better place because we have a passion for something  or because we believe in something we think is bigger than ourselves.  Despite our vastly different perspectives and experiences and our adamant beliefs, which sometimes create some very heated discussions, I think we can all share in our grief that scouting is in trouble and none of us really knows how to save it.

[qwazse]

8 hours ago, yknot said:

Very sweet essay. Thanks for sharing. We're all in it for our kids but many of us are also in it because someone else was also good to us along the way and we want to share and repay it. Or, we want to leave the world a better place because we have a passion for something  or because we believe in something we think is bigger than ourselves.  Despite our vastly different perspectives and experiences and our adamant beliefs, which sometimes create some very heated discussions, I think we can all share in our grief that scouting is in trouble and none of us really knows how to save it.

That’s the crux of it — returning the favor and doing great good in the world. (Also applies to why I teach Sunday school to 4th-6th grades. That, and I was being too disruptive in the adult class.)

From that perspective, there is a concern that youth are more harmed than helped by the net effects of this litigation.

[Eagledad]

10 hours ago, yknot said:

I also check out sometimes. I come here for hope but often leave depressed. 

However,  just to share some uplifting info I just discovered: 

We all know about Bear Grylls but famous U.K. scouts also include John Lennon, Paul McCartney, David Beckham, David Bowie, Richard Branson, Tony Blair, Keith Richards (!!!!) and, my favorite, Sir David Attenborough. You have to laugh. Could you imagine having a young Keith Richards in your Pack or Troop?  

I did, and I think of them often. Some of them (or their parents) have contacted me just to brag of how different their lives are because of scouting. Building a good scouting program was the hardest thing I ever did. It  was so worth it.

Barry

[Sentinel947]

20 hours ago, yknot said:

Very sweet essay. Thanks for sharing. We're all in it for our kids but many of us are also in it because someone else was also good to us along the way and we want to share and repay it. Or, we want to leave the world a better place because we have a passion for something  or because we believe in something we think is bigger than ourselves.  Despite our vastly different perspectives and experiences and our adamant beliefs, which sometimes create some very heated discussions, I think we can all share in our grief that scouting is in trouble and none of us really knows how to save it.

Thanks, My early Saturday AM ramblings.

Today I was out at the Council camp doing some service. I ended up running into my Troop, who was out camping there. It's one of the only places they are allowed to camp. They had about 20 Scouts and 10 Webelos out camping with them. The Webelos are working on some of their AOL requirements. Surprising to me, COVID 19 seems to have galvanized the adult leadership of the Troop, and they seem determined to make things work the best they can with COVID 19. The Scouts seemed to be having fun, and were in their patrols, which I was glad to see. 

The Cub parents camping with them had some pretty dire news. Seems like Cub packs in my area are folding up left and right. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Sentinel947
"Them"? "Us" what's my relation to the Troop now? Lol