mrjohns2 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 On 11/5/2020 at 1:06 PM, SSScout said: Any shooting event must have a BSA (at least) trained RSO (me), and be held on Council approved range and NOT be limited to only your own Troop or Pack. That is not the “at least” per the current shooting sports regulation. There must be 2 different NRA trained people: the RSO and an NRA rifle instructor (they must not be the same person). This is different than camp (more stringent) and more than required in the past. Check out the current guide. It could be limited to a troop, but must be a council event to include cubs. Councils could have more stringent rules, but not less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 6 hours ago, mrjohns2 said: That is not the “at least” per the current shooting sports regulation. There must be 2 different NRA trained people: the RSO and an NRA rifle instructor (they must not be the same person). This is different than camp (more stringent) and more than required in the past. Check out the current guide. It could be limited to a troop, but must be a council event to include cubs. Councils could have more stringent rules, but not less. ?? Requirements have been changed to require a NRA rifle instructor to open a BB-Gun range or archery range ?? Cubs are not allowed to shoot riffles. Or are we mixing Cub and Boy Scout requirements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 18 hours ago, mrjohns2 said: ... There must be 2 different NRA trained people: the RSO and an NRA rifle instructor (they must not be the same person). This is different than camp (more stringent) and more than required in the past. Check out the current guide. ... 12 hours ago, fred8033 said: ?? Requirements have been changed to require a NRA rifle instructor to open a BB-Gun range or archery range ?? ... From current cub-specific requirements (https://i9peu1ikn3a16vg4e45rqi17-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/510-322_WEB.pdf😞 Quote All shooting ranges in the Cub Scout program must be supervised by a qualified range master who is at least 18 years of age and meets the minimum requirements. Later in the document it makes clear that a range is to be opened by a "qualified BSA-certified range master." There's probably fine print elsewhere about what would lead BSA to certify that person, but the cub-specific document makes clear that it would be only one person. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 54 minutes ago, qwazse said: Later in the document it makes clear that a range is to be opened by a "qualified BSA-certified range master." Yep. That's been my understanding too. It's when opening a riffle range or a shot gun range that you need an RSO and a NRA riffle instructor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjohns2 Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 5 hours ago, qwazse said: There's probably fine print elsewhere about what would lead BSA to certify that person, but the cub-specific document makes clear that it would be only one person. I hate not being at my PC as such research is harder. So, sorry I was vague. I should just hold back from responding when there needs to be a technical answer until I have the info ready. So, yes, there must be two separate NRA certified people. Can't just have one person (like in the past). https://www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/shooting-sports/shooting-faq/ Q: What type of training do I need to help my Scout troop take youth to a shooting day at a local range or at our Scout camp? A: You need to be an NRA certified instructor in the discipline with which you plan to help. NRA certifications in rifle, pistol, shotgun, or muzzle loading rifle, or NRA shotgun coach or rifle coach would be necessary. You must also have an NRA range safety officer certification for the person who is running the range. There must be two separate people running your event. The trainer is an NRA certified training counselor. You can find this person in your local council or by calling the NRA. You can also find more information in the new Shooting Sports Manual in the sections regarding training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said: I hate not being at my PC as such research is harder. So, sorry I was vague. I should just hold back from responding when there needs to be a technical answer until I have the info ready. So, yes, there must be two separate NRA certified people. Can't just have one person (like in the past). https://www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/shooting-sports/shooting-faq/ Q: What type of training do I need to help my Scout troop take youth to a shooting day at a local range or at our Scout camp? A: You need to be an NRA certified instructor in the discipline with which you plan to help. NRA certifications in rifle, pistol, shotgun, or muzzle loading rifle, or NRA shotgun coach or rifle coach would be necessary. You must also have an NRA range safety officer certification for the person who is running the range. There must be two separate people running your event. The trainer is an NRA certified training counselor. You can find this person in your local council or by calling the NRA. You can also find more information in the new Shooting Sports Manual in the sections regarding training. There's confusion between "troops" and "packs". You quoted a question about "troops". Packs = Cub Scouts (k-5 grades). Troops = Scouts (11-18 ages). Crews get mostly lumped with troops for rules, mostly. Packs (aka cub scouts) can shoot BB guns, archery, air pellet (webelos) and wrist rockets (sling shoots). Cub shooting ranges only need a BSA certified range master. Troops shoot riffles and shot-guns. Crews can shoot pistols. Rifle and shot gun ranges require a NRA skilled instructor and a NRA RSO. I don't know all the ins-and-outs of those certifications. Page 67 of the Shooting Sports Manual you linked has the answer. Edited November 11, 2020 by fred8033 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said: ... as such research ... Your icon of "Leadership Corps" made me read up on BSA's leadership corps concept from 1972-89. Now that I've read, I can see local troops that still implement that concept. It fills in a hole on why I always wondered their troops did things different than how I had been taught. But I've been taught based on later BSA writings and earlier intentions. I was never introduced to the "Leadership Corps" concept. Interesting. Leadership Corps essentially is like a patrol of troop guides that helps the troop function. It addresses the older boy problem, provides benefits but also introduces some other issues. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYScouter Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 As an aside, at a recent National Camping School training for the new short term camp administrator position, one of the trainers mentioned that there should be an updated shooting sorts manual being released in Q1 of 2021. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ojoman Posted May 16, 2022 Share Posted May 16, 2022 A few years back we were running BB range training for our Daycamp staffers. Two police officers were taking the training. They said they got some good natured ribbing when the other officers heard they were going to be 'certified' in BB's. Then, when we went to the range and they got the rifles one said to the other, "hey, these have better sights than our guns." At any rate, if the council has a policy that a unit with properly trained volunteers and a safe range can do a unit shoot, go for it... Our council has a policy where the camp bb and archery range and equipment can be used. Remember, the equipment must meet the BSA standards too! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted May 16, 2022 Share Posted May 16, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Ojoman said: A few years back we were running BB range training for our Daycamp staffers. Two police officers were taking the training. They said they got some good natured ribbing when the other officers heard they were going to be 'certified' in BB's. Then, when we went to the range and they got the rifles one said to the other, "hey, these have better sights than our guns." Depending upon who is taking care of them, I can see that. We had an former US Army armorer taking care of our day camp BB guns. He turned a bunch of abused and poorly taken care of BB guns, and turned them into competition quality bb guns. Sadly council found out about him, and recruited him for summer camp staff where he was the shooting sports director. Quote At any rate, if the council has a policy that a unit with properly trained volunteers and a safe range can do a unit shoot, go for it... Our council has a policy where the camp bb and archery range and equipment can be used. Remember, the equipment must meet the BSA standards too! Unless policy has changed since I went to camp school, or a council has figured out a way to get around the rules, National has prohibited packs from running their own shooting sports events. Cub Scout shooting sports are restricted to district/council events. Edited May 16, 2022 by Eagle94-A1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ojoman Posted May 16, 2022 Share Posted May 16, 2022 2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said: Unless policy has changed since I went to camp school, or a council has figured out a way to get around the rules, National has prohibited packs from running their own shooting sports events. Cub Scout shooting sports are restricted to district/council events. Our council policy involves the use of council range and all shooting sports trained volunteers are part of the council shooting sports committee and there is a modest charge to use the council equipment to help maintain it. Both archery and bb. That way a unit shoot can be done on council property with trained staff and strict controls. Units without trained volunteers are at the mercy of the shooting sports committee if they want to have folks open the range and they are not always available. Off council shooting sports programs are often done at day camps and district events and I see little difference between a unit doing a shoot with qualified staff on an approved range (and possibly renting or borrowing council equipment). A mile from my home the community maintains a free public archery range with posted rules. I often see families using the facilities and I have taken my grandson there to shoot. When done properly it is a fun and safe activity. Perhaps even safer than the launching of rockets and some of the other activities that have been allowed in the past. Just saying... These are the types of activities that attract and retain membership and it does need to be well managed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted May 16, 2022 Share Posted May 16, 2022 6 hours ago, Ojoman said: Our council policy involves the use of council range and all shooting sports trained volunteers are part of the council shooting sports committee and there is a modest charge to use the council equipment to help maintain it. Both archery and bb. That way a unit shoot can be done on council property with trained staff and strict controls. Units without trained volunteers are at the mercy of the shooting sports committee if they want to have folks open the range and they are not always available. The key confusion is always talking about a "unit shoot". That's for convenience. Structurally, it's a district / council shoot. (training, staff, etc). ... It's only advertised to that unit and thus we call it a unit shoot. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ojoman Posted May 16, 2022 Share Posted May 16, 2022 Works for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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