Leadership as "Authenticity"

[CynicalScouter]

2 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

  That's a red flag for a group that is going a different direction and perhaps a direction that contradicts fundamental assumptions / directions/ guidance..

Or that knowingly contradictions the rules of the organization.

1) The Adult Application

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I hereby certify that I agree to comply with the rules and regulations of the BSA and the local council, including the Scouter Code of Conduct.

2) The Scouter Code of Conduct

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I will respect and abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training,

3) The Charter Organization Agreement

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The Chartered Organization agrees to...Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies.

 

[CynicalScouter]

30 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

The question is why would anyone not welcome people from the same organization to see what they are doing.  That's a red flag for a group that is going a different direction and perhaps a direction that contradicts fundamental assumptions / directions/ guidance.

YPT/Guide to Safe Scouting prohibits such secret groups.

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Program Requirements

The BSA does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program.

And this as well.

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No secret organizations. The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

The question is why would anyone not welcome people from the same organization to see what they are doing.  That's a red flag for a group that is going a different direction and perhaps a direction that contradicts fundamental assumptions / directions/ guidance.

Or as Louis Brandeis put it

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Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman.

and

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If the broad light of day could be let in upon men’s actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[ParkMan]

There are lots of reasons for a unit to want to be more insular.  I'd always gathered @David CO's comments were more focused at district/council/national Scouters who they wanted nothing to do with.  I see that in my neck of the woods too.  It's not that they are really hiding anything, they just find Scouters from the larger organization a hassle and bother.  i.e., you must be visiting with us to ask us for money, to do something, whatever...

From a leadership perspective, it seems like we have two choices here. 

• Tell them that they are wrong and have a bad attitude
• Try and figure out whatever the root concern is and open the lines of communication

Let's assume for a minute that the unit is doing good stuff and really doesn't want the headache and distraction of others coming in. Youth face this kind of thing all the time - particularly when they start getting invovled outside the unit in places like OA. 

Strikes me that in a servant leadership model, the onus is on the leader to reach out to the unit and work to build bridges.  No?

@David CO - is my assumption behind your statement at all correct?

[CynicalScouter]

10 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

There are lots of reasons for a unit to want to be more insular. I'd always gathered @David CO's comments were more focused at district/council/national Scouters who they wanted nothing to do with. 

Yes. Hate and bigotry come to mind. And it is NOT just district/council/national Scouters who they wanted nothing to do with

21 hours ago, David CO said:

It's true that we don't want our kids to go to school with your kids.  It is also true that we don't want our scouts to go camping with your scouts.

I just want you to leave us alone.  

Edited October 7, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[fred8033]

@ParkMan ... Well said.  

30 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Strikes me that in a servant leadership model, the onus is on the leader to reach out to the unit and work to build bridges.  No?

So leaders visiting or asking to visit is the reaching out from outside leaders to the unit.  How does the unit respond?  

30 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

... it seems like we have two choices here. 

• Tell them that they are wrong and have a bad attitude
• Try and figure out whatever the root concern is and open the lines of communication

We're scouters.  Friendly service.  Servant leaders, etc, etc.  Absolutely fine to try to figure out root concern, open communication and maybe even get it addressed in advance.  Beyond that though, we are friendly toward our fellow scouters.  

[CynicalScouter]

12 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Beyond that though, we are friendly toward our fellow scouters.

Very well said. Open hostility and being "not very cordial" is no way to run a unit or to treat another human being. And despite what some in this forum may think, district/council/national leaders are human beings. I don't think Roger Mosby has horns, fangs, and a tail.

Not even offering a cup of coffee (assuming made, of course) is just rude.

A scout (and scouter) are Friendly, Courteous and Kind.

Edited October 7, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[David CO]

49 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

There are lots of reasons for a unit to want to be more insular.  I'd always gathered @David CO's comments were more focused at district/council/national Scouters who they wanted nothing to do with. 

@David CO - is my assumption behind your statement at all correct?

Mostly, but not entirely.

There is a lot of anti-Catholic bigotry in scouting.  Always has been.  We would rather camp at our church-owned facility rather than put up that nonsense.  After all, the kids join scouting to have fun.

We expect to be yelled at, cursed at, and physically threatened at highly politicized events like pro-life rallies.  The kids are ready for it.  They have been trained to handle it.  They will anticipate the crowds calling them all sorts of ugly names (like bigot and hater).  They understand that this is the price for adhering to their faith.

We Catholic leaders understand that we cannot insulate our children from all of the ugliness in the world.  They need to know about it, because they are certain to encounter it.  But we don't think they need to encounter it at scouting activities.

 

[CynicalScouter]

9 minutes ago, David CO said:

We expect to be yelled at, cursed at, and physically threatened at highly politicized events like pro-life rallies

What on earth are you doing taking a Scouting unit to such an event?

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Policy on Scout Participation in Political Events

Uniformed unit members and leaders may participate in flag ceremonies at political events and may lead the Pledge of Allegiance; however, they should retire after the ceremony and not remain on the speakers’ platform or in a conspicuous location where attendees or viewers could construe their presence as an endorsement or symbol of support. In addition, photos of candidates or Scouts in uniform or with BSA marks and logos are not allowed in political campaign materials of any kind.

Volunteers and professionals must be alert to situations that would imply BSA favoritism for one candidate over another. Strict observance of our longstanding policy against the active participation of uniformed Scouts and leaders in political events is mandatory.

Second, as a Catholic Scouter with Catholic scouts whose unit is chartered out of a Lutheran church, I've never seen such bigotry. Lucky I guess.

But assume you are correct, what does any of that have to do with your position that non-Catholics are not welcome at all in your unit? It seems your own bigotry is shining through.

22 hours ago, David CO said:

It's true that we don't want our kids to go to school with your kids.  It is also true that we don't want our scouts to go camping with your scouts.

I just want you to leave us alone.  

Finally, any such policy of non-Catholics-not-welcome is directly contradictory to the BSA Charter and Bylaws

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Freedom

Clause 3. In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faiths be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church. However, no church or religious organization holding a valid charter shall be required to accept as an adult leader any person whose espoused personal beliefs are in conflict with the chartered organization’s religious principles.

 

.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[ParkMan]

7 minutes ago, David CO said:

Mostly, but not entirely.

There is a lot of anti-Catholic bigotry in scouting.  Always has been.  We would rather camp at our church-owned facility rather than put up that nonsense.  After all, the kids join scouting to have fun.

We expect to be yelled at, cursed at, and physically threatened at highly politicized events like pro-life rallies.  The kids are ready for it.  They have been trained to handle it.  They will anticipate the crowds calling them all sorts of ugly names (like bigot and hater).  They understand that this is the price for adhering to their faith.

We Catholic leaders understand that we cannot insulate our children from all of the ugliness in the world.  They need to know about it, because they are certain to encounter it.  But we don't think they need to encounter it at scouting activities.

 

Thank you for helping me understand that.  I'm amazed that your Scouts have been on the receiving end of religious discrimination in Scouting.  That's terrible.

[David CO]

2 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Thank you for helping me understand that.  I'm amazed that your Scouts have been on the receiving end of religious discrimination in Scouting.  That's terrible.

It happens all the time.  Not just at scouting events, but at sporting event as well.  People see the school's name on the bus, uniforms, etc., and they go out of their way to express their disapproval of our religious beliefs.  We live in a very politically polarized society.  It gets ugly.

[ParkMan]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

It happens all the time.  Not just at scouting events, but at sporting event as well.  People see the school's name on the bus, uniforms, etc., and they go out of their way to express their disapproval of our religious beliefs.  We live in a very politically polarized society.  It gets ugly.

Again - I'm sorry to hear that.  It's regrettable that we cannot simply let kids be kids.

Our society is becoming more aware of the impact of all kinds of forms of discrimination - hopefully people in your area will become increasingly aware of the impact of their behavior.

[Eagle94-A1]

I can vouch for the anti-Catholic discrimination @David CO is getting.

I was lucky growing up. My hometown is largely Catholic, 90+% of the private schools are Catholic, and I did not face the discrimination. Moving to NC, Is were I first encountered              anti-Catholic bias. I've have heard it at restaurants, children's' playgrounds, and yes at Scouting functions.

When I was a DE, I had one new pack's leadership all set and ready to go. I had about 40 new Cubs signed up, just needed the money and a CO for them. When the local Catholic Church offered to charter the pack, the potential CM called me, cursed me out, and stated he was not going to join any organization that allows Catholics in it. He did not know I was Catholic. While I was glad he stepped down, but so did the rest of the potential pack leadership. Out of 40 kids, only 5 started the new pack. Bias was still felt, and the pack folded within a year because they could not get more Cubs or leaders.

At Scouting functions, when I mention I am Catholic, I get the shocked, "You're a heathen" look at times.

[elitts]

9 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I can vouch for the anti-Catholic discrimination @David CO is getting.

I was lucky growing up. My hometown is largely Catholic, 90+% of the private schools are Catholic, and I did not face the discrimination. Moving to NC, Is were I first encountered              anti-Catholic bias. I've have heard it at restaurants, children's' playgrounds, and yes at Scouting functions.

At Scouting functions, when I mention I am Catholic, I get the shocked, "You're a heathen" look at times.

Huh.. I was surprised about the idea of anti-Catholic discrimination when David mentioned it too, it must truly be a regional thing.  The only time I've ever seen it was when my HS girlfriend told me that her pastor (Free Methodist) sat her down for like a 30 minute talk over concern for her soul because she was dating a Catholic; because, (I'm summarizing) "The Catholic Pope is actually the Anti-Christ in disguise".  I just assumed he was crazy and left it at that.  I guess all the bigots in my part of the country have enough to do worrying about the black, brown and yellow (sic) people and they don't have enough time left to worry about which Abrahamic faith they belong to.

 

2 hours ago, ParkMan said:

There are lots of reasons for a unit to want to be more insular.  I'd always gathered @David CO's comments were more focused at district/council/national Scouters who they wanted nothing to do with.  I see that in my neck of the woods too.  It's not that they are really hiding anything, they just find Scouters from the larger organization a hassle and bother.  i.e., you must be visiting with us to ask us for money, to do something, whatever...

In my experience, there's a much easier way to get rid of those pesky Council gnats than being rude or inhospitable.  When someone from council visits our troop we welcome them in, and introduce them as being "from council".  They then get swarmed by parents and spend the next however long listening to every question, complaint and suggestion every adult present has about the Council's operations for the last 5 years or so.

It usually doesn't take long before they "have another troop to visit tonight".  And from what I can remember I think we've had about 3 visits from Council folks in the last 5-6 years.

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

We're scouters.  Friendly service.  Servant leaders, etc, etc.  Absolutely fine to try to figure out root concern, open communication and maybe even get it addressed in advance.  Beyond that though, we are friendly toward our fellow scouters.  

I've found most every Scouter very friendly in a one-on-one conversation.

There is however a much larger negative tone in Scouting.  I've been around Scouting long enough to know it's not just a few posters here.  There is entirely an anti-council, anti-national, anti-Wood Badge, (and probably others) tone in Scouting.   Sadly, I believe that the strained council/national and unit relationships have fostered this for all the reasons we've already discussed.  

So, yes, I'm optimistic that unit leaders would be welcoming, but I also have come to accept that because these relationships have been so neglected that there is repair work to do.  Since the district/council/national organizations are here to support the success of the units, I think the relationship falls on those entities to take the initiative to repair those relationships.